Can we expect a small EDU clear-up for 0.81

[julianus apostata]

The title says it all; thanks for answering in advance!

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

"Clear-up" meaning?

[hellenes]

"Clear-up" meaning?

I think he means the custm/multiplayer battle rosters...
Now its a mess with all the mercs and AoR units....

[Bonny]

afaik, the messed up costum battle map screen is dircetly related to the complex recruitmentsystem, as it was in previous versions.
Nevertheless it is planned to release a sorted EDU, (if someone gets time to do it ) which can be used for mp or custom battle.
You could either have a cleaned costumbattle screen or the complex recruitmentsystem, not both at the same time.

[Barbarossa82]

You could use the no_custom unit attribute to clear the custom battle rosters up while leaving the campaign unaffected.

EDIT: I'm an idiot. This wouldn't work if the same units are used by more than one faction in different capacities (i.e. one has it as a homeland MIC recruitment option that should be in custom battle, and another has the same unit as a regional MIC unit, that shouldn't be in custom battle)

[Teleklos Archelaou]

How about someone takes the edu, and then under ownership for each unit just adds a commented out line. In that commented out line, a new ownership list would be contained (that works but is just commented out), but this new ownership is just those factions who would get the unit in custom battles. This could be a part of the official version of the edu file, and all one would have to do is go down the list and move the commenting out character to the line above instead of having it on the one below. that could be saved then as a different file. Both files could be shipped, and the player just swaps them out if they want a campaign or a custom battle MP match.

[khelvan]

The problem is not how to do it - I think we've had plans for a MP-friendly version of the EDU for a while now (basically only for those who don't plan to play campaigns, they can swap it in). Nor is the problem deciding what units go where.

The problem is simply finding someone who has the time to make all the necessary changes.

[tk-421]

The problem is not how to do it - I think we've had plans for a MP-friendly version of the EDU for a while now (basically only for those who don't plan to play campaigns, they can swap it in). Nor is the problem deciding what units go where.

The problem is simply finding someone who has the time to make all the necessary changes.

I'll do it.

[julianus apostata]

"Clear-up" meaning?

Sorry, but i am not a native speaker; what i wanted to ask was clean-up, not clear-up.

For instance issues watchman noticed in one of his topics; will these be fixed in 0.81?


;402 Arab Slingers - sling should probably have the "ap" attribute, or at least would seem pretty feeble otherwise

;14 Arjos - secondary weapon should probably have "spear" attribute, or at least majority of equivalent sword/spear heavy infantry seems to

;282 Iaosatae - sling should probably have the "ap" attribute , and the regional version of the same unit (;283) has

;23 Balroae - secondary weapon has the attribute "spear_bonus_6" which seems rather aberrant, as no other spearman gets it but instead has more "mount_effects"

;59 Curepos - secondary weapon should probably have "ap" attribute like other cavalry spears

;58 Leuce Epos - ditto

;53 Komatai Hippeis - secondary weapon should probably have attack delay of 160 like other one-handed cavalry spears

;372 Ktistai - ditto

;54 Komatai Sphendonitai - sling should probably have the "ap" attribute

;10 Aspet Hetselazor - primary weapon should probably have attack delay 160, lethality 0.33 and the attribute "ap" like other one-handed cavalry spears

;221 Azad Asavaran - primary weapon apparently buggered one way or another; unit type reads "missile cavalry", primary weapon seems to be a kontos lance - with the attribute "throwing"... The DMB gives the relevant skeleton as "fs_thp_m_spearman" though...

;222 Dehbed Asavara - primary weapon lethality should probably be round "1" as with all other missiles, not "0.2889"

;9 Zrahakir Netadzik - primary weapon should probably have the attribute "throwing" like other mounted bows (is this still necessary in 1.5 BTW ?), and secondary weapon a lethality of 0.4 like other kontos lances

;225 Pontic General - secondary weapon should probably have attack delay 160, lethality 0.33 and the attribute "ap" like other one-handed cavalry spears

;292 Shuban Fradakshana - sling should probably have the "ap" attribute

;295 Babylonian Heavy Infantry - should primary weapon have the "spear" attribute typical of "double armed" spearmen ?

;296 Nakhararakan Tiknapah - ditto

;69 Ridohárjoz (and ;70, the merc version) - secondary weapon should probably have attack delay 160 like other one-handed cavalry spears

;134 Ferulhárjoz (& ;136, the GenBG version plus ;135 Gástiz) - secondary weapon should probably have "spear" attribute

;414 Kirslininkas - an armour line of "9, 3, 0, flesh" seems somehow inappropriate for men wearing but clothes and carrying shields...

;423 Uachtarach DuboGaiscaocha (and the rebel version ;424) - primary wepon should probably have the "ap" attribute like other solifera

;183 Hippeis - primary weapon should probably have the attribute "ap" like other one-handed cavalry spears, and to maintain consistency with the merc version ;184

;371 Baktrioi Hippotoxotai - primary weapon should probably have the attribute "throwing" like other mounted bows (is this still necessary in 1.5 BTW ?)

;182 Hippakontistai (and the rebel version ;353) - secondary weapon should probably have the "ap" attribute that usually goes with kopis swords

;366 Thrakioi Hippeis - secondary weapon should probably match that of the merc version ;419 (whose charge value appears *severely* excessive BTW)

;304 Toxotai Kretikoi (and the merc versuin ;418) - should probably have secondary weapon lethality around 0.1 instead of 0.04, as they're supposed to carry short swords instead of daggers

;389 Baktrian Bodyguard - stats do not quite appear to match either appereance or description

;425 Massiloi Hoplitai (and the merc version ;426) - secondary weapon should probably have "spear" attribute

;195 Iberian Lancearii (and the GenBG version ;193 and the rebel version ;428)) - primary weapon should probably have attack delay 160 like other one-handed cavalry spears

;198 Iberian Scutarii (and the merc version ;200) - primary weapon lethality should probably be round "1" as with other missiles

;375 Balearic Light Infantry - secondary weapon should probably have lethality of "1" and the attribute "ap" like other falcatas

;233 & ;234 Eqvites Romani - primary weapon should probably have attack delay 160 like other one-handed cavalry spears

;245 Equites Praetoriani - primary weapon should probably have attack delay 160, lethality 0.33 and the attribute "ap" like other one-handed cavalry spears

;252 Velites - should probably have secondary weapon lethality around 0.1 instead of 0.04, as they're supposed to carry short swords instead of daggers

;361 Eqvites Germanorvm - secondary weapon should probably have lethality 0.33 and the attribute "ap" like other one-handed cavalry spears

;339 Eqvites Gallorvm - secondary weapon should probably have the attribute "ap" like other one-handed cavalry spears

;393 Ala Imperatoria - secondary weapon should probably have the attribute "ap" like other one-handed cavalry spears

;310 Early Saka Nobles - primary weapon should probably have the attribute "throwing" like other mounted bows (is this still necessary in 1.5 BTW ?)

;319 Aeldary Aembaltae - ditto

;387 Scythian Nobles - primary weapon should probably have the attribute "ap" instead of "thrown"

[Sarkiss]

I'll do it.

that'd be great. there was a big amount of MP players and tourneys on RTR's Gold. now, when it become outdated, there is a need for an alternative version for MP. if EB could fill the gap that would have a ready responce from veteran RTR's MP players.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I suppose, the excessive charge values of merc phalangitai in comparison with their factional equivalents need some clearing up too... (merc pezhetairoi and merc hoplitai iphikratai and such)

Not related to this topic, but still: it appears as if the old 0.7.4 2D art has been kept, whereas the actual in game units skins have been changed for some of the Successor state units. (and Camillian Principes) Will this be sorted out in the next build?

[tk-421]

Sorry, but i am not a native speaker; what i wanted to ask was clean-up, not clear-up.

For instance issues watchman noticed in one of his topics; will these be fixed in 0.81?


;402 Arab Slingers - sling should probably have the "ap" attribute, or at least would seem pretty feeble otherwise

Arab slingers are a placeholder unit and have placeholder stats.

;14 Arjos - secondary weapon should probably have "spear" attribute, or at least majority of equivalent sword/spear heavy infantry seems to

Not all units with spears are given the spear attribute.

;282 Iaosatae - sling should probably have the "ap" attribute , and the regional version of the same unit (;283) has

Yes. We were told that Celtic slingers used clay bullets by Ranika. In our system clay bullets are not armor piercing. Just before the release, though, Psycho V said that Ranika was wrong and that Celts usually used lead bullets. These will be armor piercing in 0.8.

;23 Balroae - secondary weapon has the attribute "spear_bonus_6" which seems rather aberrant, as no other spearman gets it but instead has more "mount_effects"

I have fixed this three times, but due to some edu mixups I and Foot had to redo edu changes and it became very difficult to tell what work had been done and in game and what had been done but did not make it into the latest internal update.

;59 Curepos - secondary weapon should probably have "ap" attribute like other cavalry spears

;58 Leuce Epos - ditto

Again, I fixed this multiple times. Another edu mixup problem.

;53 Komatai Hippeis - secondary weapon should probably have attack delay of 160 like other one-handed cavalry spears

;372 Ktistai - ditto

My fault.

;54 Komatai Sphendonitai - sling should probably have the "ap" attribute

These stats were written before I got here. I'm guessing that they used clay missiles. If they did not use clay missiles, then it is a mistake.

;10 Aspet Hetselazor - primary weapon should probably have attack delay 160, lethality 0.33 and the attribute "ap" like other one-handed cavalry spears

Aspet Hetselazor use an overhand cavalry spear. Overhand cavalry spears have lower lethality, no attack delay, and are not armor piercing.

;221 Azad Asavaran - primary weapon apparently buggered one way or another; unit type reads "missile cavalry", primary weapon seems to be a kontos lance - with the attribute "throwing"... The DMB gives the relevant skeleton as "fs_thp_m_spearman" though...

Not sure about this one. It is certainly a mistake.

;222 Dehbed Asavara - primary weapon lethality should probably be round "1" as with all other missiles, not "0.2889"

More edu mixup problems.

;9 Zrahakir Netadzik - primary weapon should probably have the attribute "throwing" like other mounted bows (is this still necessary in 1.5 BTW ?), and secondary weapon a lethality of 0.4 like other kontos lances

The throwing attribute is no longer necessary. I went through and removed the thrown attribute from all horse archer units in one of my earlier internal stat updates, but unfortunately, they did not make it into any full internal update.

;225 Pontic General - secondary weapon should probably have attack delay 160, lethality 0.33 and the attribute "ap" like other one-handed cavalry spears

Overhand cavalry spear.

;292 Shuban Fradakshana - sling should probably have the "ap" attribute

How the hell are these still the wrong? I've fixed these so many times its not funny.

;295 Babylonian Heavy Infantry - should primary weapon have the "spear" attribute typical of "double armed" spearmen ?

;296 Nakhararakan Tiknapah - ditto

Double armed? These guys carry their spears in one hand, or at least they did in the last internal update. I've haven't seem them in action in 0.8 so maybe they were changed, I don't know.

;69 Ridohárjoz (and ;70, the merc version) - secondary weapon should probably have attack delay 160 like other one-handed cavalry spears

I think that these guys use an overhand cavalry spear.

;134 Ferulhárjoz (& ;136, the GenBG version plus ;135 Gástiz) - secondary weapon should probably have "spear" attribute

Don't know.

;414 Kirslininkas - an armour line of "9, 3, 0, flesh" seems somehow inappropriate for men wearing but clothes and carrying shields...

I don't recall Eadingas saying anything about a shield, but my memory might be faulty or maybe it was changed or something.

;423 Uachtarach DuboGaiscaocha (and the rebel version ;424) - primary wepon should probably have the "ap" attribute like other solifera

Javelin (in the stats - uses the soliferum in the 3d model)

;183 Hippeis - primary weapon should probably have the attribute "ap" like other one-handed cavalry spears, and to maintain consistency with the merc version ;184

Overhand cavalry spear.

;371 Baktrioi Hippotoxotai - primary weapon should probably have the attribute "throwing" like other mounted bows (is this still necessary in 1.5 BTW ?)

Same response as for the Zrahakir Netadzik.

;182 Hippakontistai (and the rebel version ;353) - secondary weapon should probably have the "ap" attribute that usually goes with kopis swords

I don't think that they use a kopis, or if they do, I don't think that they are supposed to. Urnamma told me that just use a short sword.

;366 Thrakioi Hippeis - secondary weapon should probably match that of the merc version ;419 (whose charge value appears *severely* excessive BTW)

;304 Toxotai Kretikoi (and the merc versuin ;418) - should probably have secondary weapon lethality around 0.1 instead of 0.04, as they're supposed to carry short swords instead of daggers

Probably my mistake.

;389 Baktrian Bodyguard - stats do not quite appear to match either appereance or description

I never got a chance to even see these guys in game due to ctds. No one said anything about them when I asked, and I could not find a screenshot in any of our screenshots thread.

;195 Iberian Lancearii (and the GenBG version ;193 and the rebel version ;428)) - primary weapon should probably have attack delay 160 like other one-handed cavalry spears

I think that they use a one-handed lance or something.

;198 Iberian Scutarii (and the merc version ;200) - primary weapon lethality should probably be round "1" as with other missiles

That would be a mistake from before I got here.

;375 Balearic Light Infantry - secondary weapon should probably have lethality of "1" and the attribute "ap" like other falcatas

It actually should be a letality of .1, not 1. Again, edu mixup.

;233 & ;234 Eqvites Romani - primary weapon should probably have attack delay 160 like other one-handed cavalry spears

Overhand cavalry spear.

;245 Equites Praetoriani - primary weapon should probably have attack delay 160, lethality 0.33 and the attribute "ap" like other one-handed cavalry spears

Can't remember what spear they use. I'll have to check it out.

;252 Velites - should probably have secondary weapon lethality around 0.1 instead of 0.04, as they're supposed to carry short swords instead of daggers

I didn't do stats for these guys, but I'll fix them.

;361 Eqvites Germanorvm - secondary weapon should probably have lethality 0.33 and the attribute "ap" like other one-handed cavalry spears

Overhand cavalry spear.

;339 Eqvites Gallorvm - secondary weapon should probably have the attribute "ap" like other one-handed cavalry spears

EDU mixup.

;393 Ala Imperatoria - secondary weapon should probably have the attribute "ap" like other one-handed cavalry spears

I think that these guys have an overhand spear, but I can't remember. Cunctator posted something about them, I'll have to go back and find that thread.

;310 Early Saka Nobles - primary weapon should probably have the attribute "throwing" like other mounted bows (is this still necessary in 1.5 BTW ?)

;319 Aeldary Aembaltae - ditto

Same response as for the other horse archers above.

;387 Scythian Nobles - primary weapon should probably have the attribute "ap" instead of "thrown"

Yes it should.


Thanks for pointing some of this stuff. Hopefully some of these mistakes can be fixed and make it into .81.

[julianus apostata]

Thanks tk-421 for answering so detailed; lesser edu-mix-ups means better battle map experience (in my opinion).

Just one more question. Is it intended that all elephant units have only one hitpoint. And if it is a mistake, what your recommendation for giving them accurate HPs.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Thanks for pointing some of this stuff. Hopefully some of these mistakes can be fixed and make it into .81.

I have corrected EDU and DMB according to your replies. No more missing stats...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Thanks tk-421 for answering so detailed; lesser edu-mix-ups means better battle map experience (in my opinion).

Just one more question. Is it intended that all elephant units have only one hitpoint. And if it is a mistake, what your recommendation for giving them accurate HPs.

Notice that they have ---> 1, 5 = 1 HP for riders, 5 HP for the elephant...

[julianus apostata]

Notice that they have ---> 1, 5 = 1 HP for riders, 5 HP for the elephant...

Great! thanks for enlightment!!

[QwertyMIDX]

Velites have a dagger, not a shortsword...

[Watchman]

Well, it's mainly a "this looked odd to me, does it to you?" list. I was mostly aiming for a certain degree of consistency - for example most or at least very many of infantry units that carry both a spear, over- or underam, and another weapon (usually a longsword of the 0.225 lethality type, but the Babylonians and those Hayasdan elite guards IIRC had axes), but aren't phalanx troops, have the "spear" attribute for the former, and it seemed logical to me that they all should all the more so as in some cases the difference between the two "modes" seemed minimal otherwise, or the spear option next to useless.

And, well, there were anough sheer inconsistencies and oversights in the EDU it seemed to me the omissions of that attribute would have been such as well.

I never quite was able to figure out the whole cavalry spear thingy save that kontos and xyston type two-handers had a stellar charge value, pretty low base attack value, the "ap" attribute and ugly attack delays (180 or 200). Over-and underhand one-handers were a really mixed bag, but it seemed to me that both were meant to have the 160 delay, "ap" and 0.33 lethality (complete sets or parts thereof constantly turning up with both) with the difference of the two being in the attack/charge allocation - overhands seemed to be meant for comparatively high attack and low charge, underhands the other way...

[tk-421]

Velites have a dagger, not a shortsword...

Are you sure? I remember reading once they carried a short sword in case they were forced into melee fighting. I probably read wrong or remember wrong or maybe the book was wrong.