Nationwide unrest

**FactionHeir** · 12-09-2006, 20:13

I've been checking on most of the settlements in my campaigns and have noticed (under VH), that starting around turn 25 or 30 (I may be wrong, but its just a guess) every single settlement I have gets 15% unrest. No religious unrest but the normal kind. Even in settlements without a governor. Mostly this happens to settlements I have owned for a while and very seldomly to newly captured settlements (i.e. Rome didn't have any normal unrest when I captured it)
Funny thing is, that its always 15%.
Anyone got any ideas on that? Its kind of annoying when you got unrest and don't know where it comes from.

**PaulTa** · 12-09-2006, 20:15

A good indicator of wether or not someone has a spy in your settlement is a sudden increase in unrest for no reason what so ever. From what you're saying, it sounds like you have a lot of spies in your different settlements.

**FactionHeir** · 12-09-2006, 20:24

I have tried that hypothesis and its not spies. Even islands (like Rhodes) have this problem, not just mainland cities and when I got fed up with it, i made 3 spies for each settlement and gave them skill 10 quickly, ended turn twice to check whether there was a spy inside and nothing. The unrest stays. I'm guessing its related to some campaign script or some situation your nation must be in?

**Molinaargh** · 12-09-2006, 20:24

Pretty sure 15% is the standard spy unrest.

Make a few spies and keep them in your settlements. Give them dumb missions to increase their skill, this likely makes them better at detecting enemy spies.

The AI is using too many spies right now, there should be an agent limit.

**PaulTa** · 12-09-2006, 20:25

Excomm does that, only 20%. High taxes will cause unrest. Conquering settlements that aren't your own cause unrest.

Might be a trait that your faction leader has that causes the unrest.

**FactionHeir** · 12-09-2006, 20:41

While my faction leader is usually someone with high dread (due to assassinations and espionage), I don't think that this has an influence on nationwide unrest, as he doesn't have a trait that states something like that. Excomm or taxes aren't causing the 15% unrest as they are different types of negative public order.
Excomm has its own symbol (crossed cross) and high taxes have the bag with arrow symbol. I'm talking about the pitchfork with fire symbol though.

I experienced it both as turks and as milan, both times after a certain playtime (varied), and usually when I started having a lot of territories.

I appreciate the responses so far though, and wonder whether anyone else has had that problem?

**Varyar** · 12-09-2006, 21:50

I have noted the same thing. However it might still be because of spies. I played a game as Milan and had big unrest problems in my capital but after a serious effort I managed to rid the town of spies and suddenly all unrest, even that pesky 15% was gone.

So my only suggestion would be to try harder. Gather as much as 5 or more good spies in a single city and wait and see what happens.

**FactionHeir** · 12-09-2006, 22:08

Spies usually cause around 30% unrest though, which, while of the same kind, is impossible on island cities because the AI doesn't use boats and as proof you never ever see Rhodes being occupied by the AI even later in the game.
And if Rhodes has the unrest problem too (i converted it to a city btw), and every single city I own does (even those on the far rim of the map far away from any other faction), then I do wonder what this is about...

**Dan.o6** · 12-09-2006, 22:11

The AI does use boats, extensively infact. In my current campaign I have seen various armies landing all around the map, and it's not just armies they have transported Diplomats, Priests and Spys aswell.

**Quillan** · 12-09-2006, 22:47

Spies cause 5% unrest per point of subterfuge they have. The tax penalty and religious unrest are listed separately with unique icons. Character traits can cause it, but it does seem to be somewhat more widespread than in RTW. A number of provinces in RTW had base 15% unrest and a few had base 30% unrest (Judea, Cilicia, and the amazon homeland plus maybe 1-2 others). In my current Venetian campaign, Venice has none, Zagreb has none, Ragusa has 10%, and the remainder (Bologna, Florence, Milan, Genoa, Ajaccio, Cagliara, Durazzo, Iraklion and Rhodes) all have 15%. There are no spies on the islands, and no governors in any city.

**FactionHeir** · 12-10-2006, 02:42

Tried as suggested using more spies:

Used 10 spies from various settlements and quickly gave traits/ancillaries to make them subterfuge 10. Put them in Antioch (one of my 15% unrest settlements, as good as any other, but since I got half the world it seemed far away enough to elminate any variance) and ended turn 5 times. No spy detected and unrest stays. So I suppose that kind of proves my point that this unrest is some kind of bug.

Similarly, my capital (when pure or nearly pure with my religion) always gets 10% religious unrest if it has a governor.

**Molinaargh** · 12-10-2006, 02:58

Originally Posted by FactionHeir

Tried as suggested using more spies:

Used 10 spies from various settlements and quickly gave traits/ancillaries to make them subterfuge 10. Put them in Antioch (one of my 15% unrest settlements, as good as any other, but since I got half the world it seemed far away enough to elminate any variance) and ended turn 5 times. No spy detected and unrest stays. So I suppose that kind of proves my point that this unrest is some kind of bug.

Similarly, my capital (when pure or nearly pure with my religion) always gets 10% religious unrest if it has a governor.

That's all very strange. Sorry for insisting in the spy thing, but it was the only reasonable explanation I could think of.

Maybe someone who has taken a look at the files can explain this to us, I really want to know what's going on there.

**FactionHeir** · 12-10-2006, 03:04

Don't worry about it, I'd be skeptical at first too, that's why I also did the tests to confirm instead of just insisting.

For the moment I added them to the buglist, CA should hopefully know what's causing it! :)

**Bijo** · 12-10-2006, 14:40

I have an idea.
I've seen that when I keep on conquering regions and/or winning battles I see a public order boost called Triumph in many settlements. So to take care that this Unrest won't bother you too much just keep on conquering :P lol.

But seriously, I have this problem too, yeah. I was just thinking "Hmm, what the heck? Is it just because of spies?" Then I thought it could have to do with religious unrest and others that create a global unrest or something? Or maybe spies have been to my settlements and then left but the unrest stayed?

Well, whatever it is, I don't like it.

**FactionHeir** · 12-10-2006, 14:43

Finally someone who has the same experience! :D
Would you like to confirm my post in the buglist?

**Quillan** · 12-10-2006, 15:07

I don't think it's a bug. I think it's a planned effect. It mostly happens in settlements that didn't belong to you at game start, so I think it's a replacement for the culture penalty from RTW. They really toned down the public order penalties in this game. The 50% culture penalty is gone, squalor penalty to public order caps at 80% now, distance to capitol penalty has been reduced, so it's a lot easier to keep a large city under control in this game. I expect the permanent unrest (if that's what it is) was put in the game to give you SOME little difficulty to overcome keeping acquired regions under control. I just haven't been able to find it in the files where it's controlled.

**FactionHeir** · 12-10-2006, 15:12

Considering that Milan in my Milan vampaign was no longer my capital but had permanent unrest, I don't think it has to do with replacement of cultural differences (as those in RTW could be eliminated over time using extermination and demolishing buildings not of your faction)
As for "easier control of large cities", I again have to disagree. The decrease in squalor effect but addition to population growth just mean the cities become ever larger and you can't have the tax rates high to stop growth (unless you want to forgo a lot of useful buildings to decrease growth) and when taxes are low it just grows even faster. I.e. I got permanent PO troubles from cities that grew above 40k and still with positive growth rates.

The unrest must stem from something else that they must have made an error on really...

**Bijo** · 12-10-2006, 15:56

I'd like to support you but I'm not saying it's a bug though. Fact is, I don't know what it is, lol :)

But I'm sure we can find out. I'll check that bug list again :)

**Quillan** · 12-10-2006, 16:11

I can't post attachments, so I'll hide this under a spoiler tag below, but I was right. I did a little digging over in the RTW forums. In the data folder of the game directory was a file called descr_rebel_factions.txt. In this file, it listed every type of rebels that could appear in the game, along with certain specifics on them. Here's a snippet from the RTW vanilla file as of version 1.6:

rebel_type Judaeans //parthia
category peasant_revolt
chance 6
description Judaeans
unit east archer
unit rebel judaean zealots
unit rebel judaean zealots
unit eastern rebel general

The rebel type was tied to a particular province, Judea in this case. The //parthia probably meant which models to use. The unit listing showed what types of units could appear in a rebel army. The "chance" line is the important one. What they found was each point of chance was 5% permanent unrest in the game if you held that province. The vast majority of the settlements had 0 under chance. A few had 6 and somewhat more than that had 3, which made for a few provinces with 30% base unrest and a number more with 15%.

This particular file is packed up in M2TW, but over in the mod chat forums there is a thread which contains a link where you can download the already unpacked files to look at, or modify and use with the mod switch feature. I downloaded them a while back, so here's the entirety of the contents of the M2TW descr_rebel_factions.txt file:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Not all provinces can have rebels appear. These are the provinces that can. Every single one has a chance of 3, which means 15% base unrest.

**Zenicetus** · 12-10-2006, 20:40

Originally Posted by Quillan

Not all provinces can have rebels appear. These are the provinces that can. Every single one has a chance of 3, which means 15% base unrest.

Good detective work! So, we can assume that 15% unrest (yellow trident version) could be a single spy in a province without base unrest, but it's probably just base unrest for that province. And anything over 15% means you've got a spy, right?

**FactionHeir** · 12-10-2006, 21:10

Interesting finding indeed, but while it does mention region based, it does not mention which regions are actually affected.
Further, it could simply be that this might be a chance that rebels (and what type of rebels+amount) spawns in this province randomly?

**FactionHeir** · 12-10-2006, 21:19

Oh another thing (i wish I could edit):

Your evidence does not really explain why the unrest isn't permanent to begin with but sets in after a certain amount of time and at varying times for varying settlements.

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