Archery in M2 - Analysis from in-game testing

**dopp** · 12-10-2006, 17:43

Originally Posted by Mandos

On a side note, most people seem to ignore longbow units that aren't English. If you want to see a rediculously good missile unit use French Scots Guard, a powerful longbowman in plate-mail, who is also skilled in melee.

My $.02

Okay, so the most powerful longbow unit in the game isn't even English, it's French? Maybe rets need a boost after all. Then again, how many Scots Guard can you have and how easily, compared to longbowmen of all stripes? It might actually be okay play balance if the French get the best longbow unit but the English get more.

I'm not very sure about the history on this... were the Scots famous archers? I know they were good spearmen, but I always thought the Welsh (and later the English) were better at the shooting bit.

**Darkmoor_Dragon** · 12-10-2006, 17:49

dont start the history again

**dopp** · 12-10-2006, 17:52

Originally Posted by Darkmoor_Dragon

dont start the history bollocks again ffs

Too late, it started about 5 posts back.

**Darkmoor_Dragon** · 12-10-2006, 17:55

wake me up in another 300 posts then - might have returned OT by then

**katank** · 12-10-2006, 18:00

Yep, French late game roster is amazing. Not only do they get lancers (best pure heavy cavalry), they get Scots guard (best archers).

Scots guard require huge stone walls to build and is in fact easier to reach than top level archery range IMHO.

**Mandos** · 12-10-2006, 18:27

Yes, you can build SG out of cities. No need for all that money on archery ranges. The English do get longbows a long long time before French get them, the French ones are just better once you are later in the game.

**Kraxis** · 12-10-2006, 18:37

Originally Posted by Mandos

Yes, you can build SG out of cities. No need for all that money on archery ranges. The English do get longbows a long long time before French get them, the French ones are just better once you are later in the game.

Getting SG from cities is not very great. I don't mind them being stronger, if only they were pretty hard to get. These guys should be fixed to the highest archery range. It is sad that there can't really be a requirement of several buildings anymore, or else these would be easy to limit out (all three highest unitbuildings at castles would be fitting).

But as to the tests, I think it is fair that the test ends with the longbows out of ammo.
Would I play Passive AI and stand around with my army while the enemy crossbows laid waste to it? Or would I withdraw/attack? It is limited how much more damage the crossbows would do in case of the latter.

**Kobal2fr** · 12-10-2006, 18:43

Originally Posted by dopp

Okay, so the most powerful longbow unit in the game isn't even English, it's French? Maybe rets need a boost after all. Then again, how many Scots Guard can you have and how easily, compared to longbowmen of all stripes? It might actually be okay play balance if the French get the best longbow unit but the English get more.

I'm not very sure about the history on this... were the Scots famous archers? I know they were good spearmen, but I always thought the Welsh (and later the English) were better at the shooting bit.

They're better archers all other things being equal (in the game I mean, don't know how true to history they are at all), but they're more expensive (both buying price and upkeep - city unit), and by the time the French get them, the English will almost certainly have at least a Master Woodsmen Guild, so they'll be able to crank out valour 2 retinue longbowmen, and of course they will also have been using and exping+retraining longbow units for much longer. Retinue'd have the same armor as the scots too, if the armor system worked properly.
Think the SG pool size and refill rate is quite low too, but I've never played my French campaigns that far TBH, so that much may be way off.

In MP, well, the English will be able to field 12 pure longbow units + 4 Sherwoods before hitting any unit cap, the French only 4 SGs.
Plus, and that's a big plus, SG's don't have stakes.

**andrewt** · 12-10-2006, 18:52

I'm puzzled by both the SG and the French archers as well. Shouldn't the eastern factions (Egyptians, Russians, Turkish, Timurids, Mongols, maybe Byzantines as well) get the best hybrid archers in the game? The Turks' late-game missile cav selection is pretty disappointing to me.