Allied with the Mongols

[CaptainSolo]

That was an excellent read Doug

Once i get the patch i'll be starting a new game,probably with Egypt.Even more so now you have shown the Mongols to be beatable.

Update the thread and let us know how your campaign progresses.

[Doug-Thompson]

Thanks, CaptainSolo. Regrettably, however, I won't be able to finish that campaign after installing the patch.

Key points to remember when fighting Mongols as Egyptians, however:

1. Mameluk Archers have a melee option that Mongol Horse Archers don't have. Mongol Heavy Horse Archers are a dead-on match for Mameluk Archers in melee and have 3-silver experience to boot, but the basic MHA is outclassed, particularly if your MA have some experience and upgrades.

2. Mongols have no javelins. Those are the perfect weapons for softening up their lancers and other decent melee cavalry. You may have to turn skirmish off if the brawl is big. Otherwise, they have trouble getting in range of the units you really want to kill.

3. Saracen Militia are a fine, solid spear unit. So are dismounted Arab Cavalry.

4. Desert Archers are a fine, solid archery unit.

5. Arab cavalry are too light for this work.

6. Kwazian (sp?) cavalry is generously available as mercenaries. They're not as good as melee Mamalukes but will do.

7. Although I've disparaged artillery elephants in other places, firing across that gorge at long range would be a lot of fun.

[CaptainSolo]

A shame that Doug,it would have been interesting to see how the rest of the war played out.
Also,thanks for the tips,i'm looking forward to getting started with the Egyptians and i'll keep your advice in mind.

[Shahed]

I'm getting desperate to meet the Mongols and the Timurids now... should be so much fun. Nice account Doug.

Solo, all the factions are beatable. People like to hype.

I think you can continue the campaign Doug, at least I have'nt tried continuing mine just yet (busy with other stuff), but I think the patch is compatible.

[Doug-Thompson]

Lo and behold, the patch is compatible. Why can't I read some of those announcements correctly? Oh well.

I fought another Mongol battle during lunch, This one killed their faction leader, Khan Orda, at at a much more shallow river crossing between Mosul and Baghdad. It was also by far the most decisive victory yet. For once I took out a Mongol stack without losing one.

(Lucky for me I wasn't facing Orda Khan )

No reinforcements for either side.

I've changed my mind about cannon elephants. I was pretty disparaging about them in another thread. This time I had hired some as mercenaries. I stuck them far out on my left high up on the river bank, where they could fire into the enemy's 2 o'clock, hopefully get some raking action and do some long-range sniping. They did -- and killed 158 men out of a 746-man army by themselves without getting in range of Mongol arrows, except for one brief moment by my mistake. I'm getting ahead of myself, though.

The Mongols wait long enough to see if I'm an idiot who will cross the river to attack them. I'm far enough back from the bank that they can't snipe at me with either their trebuchets or rocket launchers, much less arrows. I have an army unusually heavy (for me) with infantry: Saracen Militia, dismounted Arab Cavalry, at least four Desert Archers and one militia archer, a unit of mercenary javelin infantry in their usual general-killing role, supported by Khwarazmian heavy cavalry and Mameluk Archers, about four each. There are the aforementioned elephants and my general, too, but for once my general didn't have to fight.

I start sniping at their heavy cavalry archers with my EleCannons, turning off fire-at-will and settling on some good Mongol lancers that are almost directly across the river from my big new pets. The Mongols sweat and groan and push two trebuchets over there to counterfire. I wait until they're almost in position, then switch fire to the treb crews. You can't target the trebs themselves, but you can target the crews with a good chance of hitting the trebs. Those stray shots cause 20 percent damage a hit. The Mongols shove their trebs away, back toward the center of their line without firing a shot. At this point, I stop fire to conserve ammo. The battle hasn't started yet and 7 percent of the Mongol army is dead.

Rising to the inevitable, the Mongols cross the river in a typical Total War cross the river lunge. I commit everything right away, because I don't want those Mongol horse archers slipping around me. The Mongols are going to die, but the real issue now is how much of an army will I have left.

That where the elephants come in again. Barely having to move, they take the river crossing under constant fire, having to switch targets as units stream past. I'm wishing for a "fire at this spot" command, but otherwise do fine.

As the Mongols get across, the elephant's cannons target large clumps of units at the tail end of their formation. Although my troops in melee could use some help, friendly fire from a cannon is dangerous. The archers, foot and horse, are all firing at will, and all are firing.

I don't want to give the impression that the elephants won the battle all by themselves. They didn't .They just had the most unique role, which requires more description. The rest of the battle was a textbook contested river crossing fight, with Mameluk archers and their Desert Archer cousins sweeping the air with arrows. Between that and the return fire, a cricket could have jumped from arrow to arrow from one side of the Mongol army to the other.

Then two things happened. The Khan crossed the river and Mongol rocket launchers started to get to the other side. Trebuchets were getting across too, but it wasn't exactly their kind of fight.

I sent every heavy cavalry unit I had, plus a spear unit, plus my Javelin-hurling king-killers after the khan. That left an opening for some light Mongol lancers to make a half-hearted lunge at my general, but they quickly turned aside and got spanked by my general's bodyguard for their trouble. Meanwhile, my EleCannons, with seemingly limitless ammo, take the rocket launchers under fire. It's personal. If I ever saw a weapon that looked like it might scare elephants, it's a Mongol Rocket Launcher.

The Khan is captured by heavy cavalry. What's left of the Mongol army starts to panic. They're pushed into the river and chased by my largely intact Mameluk Archers, which now switch roles to melee cav. The Mongol army is 95 percent destroyed. Me? About 30 percent. The Mongols refuse the ransom, including the $10K for the Khan alone.

Oh, by the way, about half the provinces in my Empire are hit with the Black Death. So far, the chief consequence is financial. However, I've been able to raise my taxes and had about $18K florins in the bank, so I should be OK for at least three turns. My largest expense, by far, is army expense. I should have enough troops to fight the rest of the Mongols off.

[CaptainSolo]

Excellent stuff Doug,i was hoping you'd post an update.

What's interesting about this is that it's the opposite to what i saw many people recommend in various threads,(ie) Hold up in your largest citadels and cities,though the idea of limiting the mobility of the mongol army may be the same i have a feeling you are able to inflict heavier casualties with this approach,though i have yet to try either myself.
I always knew it would be a war of attrition and heavy on the bank balance but you seem to be getting on top of them now.

Judging by a few of your earlier posts it seems i have underestimated the Mamluk troops a little as they sound very effective in your descriptions.How do you rate them against other troops of a similair type? I don't mean in a 1 V 1 custom battle but in larger engagements,say against the Turks and their various horse archer units who i imagine you have crossed swords with at some point?

Thanks in advance.

[Shahed]

That was an excellent read. Well done. Sounds like an awesome battle.

I tried the Rocket Launchers in custom, and holy smoking macarel, they are mean. I love the elephant artillery as well, it's great fun to watch them shoot. I love all things projectile, so am a big artillery fan as well. Once gunpowder comes around I'll be using some canon and musket armies in supplement to the usual all cavalry combined arms.

It's Khwarazmian, named (as you know I suppose) after the empire of the same name. The cavalry is an abstract generalisation in M2:TW.

The spelling varies from source to source but in Persian it's pronounced Khhh-waa-raz-me-an, or Khhwaa-raz-me-an.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khwarezmid_Empire

[Doug-Thompson]

Thanks, CaptainSolo. I get the impression that other players have had to bear much more of the brunt of Mongol attacks. I've read about three waves of Mongols and have only seen two, and one of them had suffered losses. I've destroyed five Mongol stacks, and they're down to three full ones left, two partials that add up to at least one more and a remnant — as far as I know.

My long peace with the Mongols allowed me to build up armies and my economy. I'm not sure that's going to be an option after the second patch comes out, with it's advertised added Mongol agressiveness.

As for Mameluk Archers (MamAs), Turkis Saphis have slightly better stats. I assume building requirements for them are similar, but would have to check. The real advantage of the MamA is that an Egyptian economy will provide, retrain and maintain them in large numbers.

A top contender for the best horse archer would be the Byz Vardariotai, for example. You can only get at a castle. You can't increase a castles output of them with stables, either.

You can make or retrain MamAs at a city with a level-3 racetrack or a relatively low-tier castle, and you can boost production at castles with stables. I'm embarrased to admit that I'll have to look up the building requirements tonight, but they're not demanding.

Other factions might have building requirements as low. They often do not, however, have trading income cash cows like Alexandria or Antioch. Farming income in Egypt is not to be dismissed, either. Playing the Egyptians won't solve all money problems, but it should help.

MamAs aren't the best cavalry archers, but they're very good and a "critical mass" of them can be built in, supported in or moved to and resupplied in all sorts of far-flung places.