Parthian names

[Philippe]

The plain vanilla version of the RTW has a character named Phraotes. I'm no Iranian expert, but I think this should be Phraates. The RTW Parthian character list doesn't include Phraates.

In real life (tm) the Arsaces who founded the Parthians about twenty years after the game starts (and yes, I'm pretty sure he usually dies of old age long before that) had a brother named Tiridates. I may be looking at the wrong place, but the data file that I checked with Parthian names didn't include a Tiridates. (If EB has its own lists I'm probably looking in the wrong place).

On an unrelated note, Parthia starts out allied with Pontus. The result of that alliance would seem to be that it causes a break in the alliance with Seleucia when Seleucia eventually gets into trouble with Pontus. This causes Seleucia to attack Parthia many years before Parthia split off from the empire historically. I'm surprised that the Parthians even know where Pontus is at that date. Though I suppose people knew their geography a whole lot better in those days...

I'm still grappling with basic mechanics so there may be something I overlooked (as in one should never take RTW dates seriously anyway) but I wonder if it wouldn't make more sense to set the game up so that the Seleucids leave Parthia alone until after 250 B.C.?

I'll admit that I haven't looked at the ramifications if you're playing the Seleucids instead of the Parthians.

One mini-bug that I've noticed springs to mind -- when playing a tactical battle some of the Parthian archer units (who may actually be Daha -- I don't remember) when you give them an order to launch a missile attack the pointer shows up as a javelin rather than a bow. Is this intentional ? If you aren't familiar with what I'm refering to I can go start a few battles and try to reproduce it.

[Lucasiewicz]

In real life (tm) the Arsaces who founded the Parthians about twenty years after the game starts (and yes, I'm pretty sure he usually dies of old age long before that) had a brother named Tiridates. I may be looking at the wrong place, but the data file that I checked with Parthian names didn't include a Tiridates. (If EB has its own lists I'm probably looking in the wrong place).

I think he's born ingame around 330 BC and therefor mostly dies even a while before 250 BC. Even though there are mutliple sources and possibilities on the year of his death, there is some consensus nowadays that he would have ruled until 211 BC and not his brother Tiridates. So, even if this is not a certainty, he should be rather young at the start of the game. At least young enough to be able to sing it out until around 250-240 BC. And if EB accept that Arsaced ruled until 211 BC, he should even be in his 20'er years at the start of the game (not necessarily being the factions leader, because I have no idea who was it's leader in 272 BC).

One mini-bug that I've noticed springs to mind -- when playing a tactical battle some of the Parthian archer units (who may actually be Daha -- I don't remember) when you give them an order to launch a missile attack the pointer shows up as a javelin rather than a bow. Is this intentional ? If you aren't familiar with what I'm refering to I can go start a few battles and try to reproduce it.

This is intentional for some reason that I forget. It solves some sort of problem. My guess it's done so that they can keep firing while retreating. Might be wrong. The point is that's no bug, but intentional.

[Moros]

I believe it had a reason in a 7.2-7.4 (for rome 1.2) however it doesn't matter anymore in 8.0 (patch 1.5) and are just a slip trough. Probably is corrected in the next patch or the patch after that.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Hello Philippe,

"Phraortes" is in all actuality a name that has origins in the Median empire, as such a ruler did exist during Median times. This is, of course, the basis for the later "Phraates", which later became "Farhâd". This is an anachronism that CA not only pulled on certain characters with typically ancient Median names, but CA has also included ancient Assyrio-Babylonian names such as "Nidintu-Bel". We are however working with the names and as such, will have a basis in this chart that you can see right here:

http://www.cais-soas.com/articles/pe...s_articles.htm

Since the Parthians are one of the most poorly documented of nationalities, a certain degree of improvization will need to be applied. Aside from the Nisa ostraca some inspiration will be drawn from early Sassanids. Names such as "Vologases" seems to appear quite late in Sassanid regal genealogy as well.

In real life (tm) the Arsaces who founded the Parthians about twenty years after the game starts (and yes, I'm pretty sure he usually dies of old age long before that) had a brother named Tiridates. I may be looking at the wrong place, but the data file that I checked with Parthian names didn't include a Tiridates. (If EB has its own lists I'm probably looking in the wrong place).

While historical realism is a great priority, there is a slight issue with this. It appears that Arsaces, the founder of the Ashkanid dynasty had a father, also named "Arsaces", giving us a clear reminder of the controversy of the true founder of the Achaemenid Empire (Cyrus II The Great), and which monarch under the Medians who established the dynasty (Achaemenes). Prior to Cyrus II The Great, there was a Cambyses, and before him, a Cyrus I, but Cyrus II The Great also has a son, Cambyses II... You see, it's at first quite irritating, but it hints at that the system of naming is hereditary for the Iranian monarchs, rather hinting at that the name is treated as a title. Now of course, I don't know much about how RTW works, but two characters named "Arsaces" is going to cause problems. Of course, the roundabout is that the mod wishes to portray the Parthians as the "Pârnî", before they became the Parthians who ousted and in all practicality replaced the Seleucid empire.

With sincere regards,
~TPC~

[Lucasiewicz]

While historical realism is a great priority, there is a slight issue with this. It appears that Arsaces, the founder of the Ashkanid dynasty had a father, also named "Arsaces", giving us a clear reminder of the controversy of the true founder of the Achaemenid Empire (Cyrus II The Great), and which monarch under the Medians who established the dynasty (Achaemenes).

Interesting. I'm wondering where you got your information for this? Because I'm currently wanting to get deeper in to the Parthian history.

Now of course, I don't know much about how RTW works, but two characters named "Arsaces" is going to cause problems.

Well, if the Arsak/Arsaces who died at 211 BC. indeed was the second in line, are there any hints for his real name? Giving him his real name would then be an option (maybe EB allready did this, I remember being one son of the older Arsaces being Ardumanish, but I forgot the other two)? And one of the other children of the other Arsaces would have to be Tiridates, brother to the later Parthian king Arsaces, not? Or is that person only fiction? And can't there really not be two characters with the same name in RTW?

[The Persian Cataphract]

Here you go, friend:

http://www.parthia.com/arsaces1.htm

http://www.parthia.com/parthia_history.htm#Early

Well, if the Arsak/Arsaces who died at 211 BC. indeed was the second in line, are there any hints for his real name? Giving him his real name would then be an option

This is a problem. Parthia is a very poorly documented power, and we have few outlets on Parthian names, outside of the ostraca found in Nisa (Featuring roughly 200 names, however, luckily all Iranic). Arsaces is a little bit of a dilemma as it also is treated as an epithet. All legitimate early sovereigns of Parthia have "ARSAKOU", a Greek inscription. This is furthered by the fact that these kings consider themselves as descendants of Arsaces. The name of Arsaces the elder and Arsaces I could either be genuine, or they could be mere titles, but that is all we know, because later on "Arsaces" becomes a de facto title, an epithet. Again, this can be traced to Achaemenian times, and even Bessus the usurper of Bactria (Former satrap of Darius III Codomannus) assumed for himself a name, as if it was a title. So, if Arsaces, the person himself, was not genuinely named "Arsaces", we are in a hot spot, because we have no other name to refer him with, unfortunately. We are right now in the stage of either choosing the Hellenized or Iranic form of these names, so you have a point.

nd one of the other children of the other Arsaces would have to be Tiridates, brother to the later Parthian king Arsaces, not? Or is that person only fiction?

No, it's true. Tiridates (Tîrdâd) was co-regent of Arsaces I, though he is often dismissed in Parthian history due to insignificance. He is far more real than "Ardumanish" or "Bagabigna", in which the latter sounds like an infant's first attempt at uttering words

And can't there really not be two characters with the same name in RTW?

Well, I'm not qualified to speak on the technical issues, but considering that this would otherwise be something easily applied, I think there will be an issue if there are two characters named "Arsaces". This is a shame, because those two characters have identical names, while they can't be referred to with anything else. One could perhaps exploit the ambiguities of the names by naming the elder "Arshâk" and Arsaces I as "Ârashk"? It sounds a little like cheating