Nothing can withstand a modern army (in theory)

[dopp]

Try fighting a all horse (Mix of Lancers 1/3 and HA 2/3) Mongol army with that army composition on open terrain.Defeat is pretty much guaranteed.

Guaranteed? I have fought the vaunted Mongol horde and won (against AI, of course, which is ridiculously stupid at times). With very heavy casualties, but that's normal for late armies. No shields = pincushions. Since 2+4+6+4 leaves 4 slots open, I can take other units to compensate for the strengths of my opponents. Artillery, horse archers, jinetes, swords for sieges, more heavy cav, elephants, cannon fodder, plenty of options there.

[Kagemusha]

Guaranteed? I have fought the vaunted Mongol horde and won (against AI, of course, which is ridiculously stupid at times). With very heavy casualties, but that's normal for late armies. No shields = pincushions. Since 2+4+6+4 leaves 4 slots open, I can take other units to compensate for the strengths of my opponents. Artillery, horse archers, jinetes, swords for sieges, more heavy cav, elephants, cannon fodder, plenty of options there.

I battled against a full Mongol stack on grassy plain map.Here is the composition of Mongol army:

1 General
2 Khans Guards
2 Mongol Heavy Lancers
2 Mongol Light Lancers
6 Mongol Heavy archers
7 Mongol horse archers

And my HRE late army:

1 General
5 Landsknecht
2 Zwei Händers
4 Arquebusiers
2 Gothic Knights
2 Imperial Knights
4 Serpentines

In second variation i replaced the Arquebusiers with 4 Reiters to get more cavalry combined with firepower.
On first battle the mongols aproached carefully and it almost seemed pretty harmless at first i got few salvos from my Arq´s and Serpentines to hit the Mongols. The Mongol Center stopped in the range of their bows and started slaughtering my Arq´s with missile fire.Then their lancers hitted my cavalry on both flanks followed by some horse archers that started shooting of my artillery men. With combination of Landsknechts and Knights i was able to fend of the Mongol Lancers. But at that time the Horse archers in the center had practicly wiped out my Arq´s and Landsknecht line with their bows.Now my depleted Cavalry got their share and ofcourse the Mongols didnt engage.Just ran away if i tryed to charge them continuosly shooting my men. So only thing i could do was to hammer them with my serpentines,but that wasnt enough.Once my cavalry forces were depleted enough the Mongol horse archers wiped them with backing of some the lancers they still had and after that ran over the few remaining Landsknechts artillery and my General. The arrow storm that 13 units of Horse archers deployed against my forces was just too much. I think that an European commander would have had just the same frustration.I couldnt catch the Mongols and my firearms rate of fire wasnt enough to shoot them down.

After the first battle i decided to reinforce my cavalry by replacing the Arquebusiers with Reiters who are pistol armed cavalry.I still held the other troops the same as my army was supposed to be mainstream European late army.
This didnt help me either at the second battle the Mongols decided to start a shooting match with Reiters and riding in circles in front of my pike line obliterating both with missile fire. Ofcourse again the rate of fire of the Reiters wasnt enough and the Mongols killed them.After that they started shooting down my Heavy cavalry and once weakened enough they charged and broke my cavalry with their lancers. The rest is pretty much history. One significant finding i made was that the Mongols didnt attack my pike line with their lancers from front at any point of those two battles,when my pikes still had enough men to talk about anykind of formation.

I would like to hear about experiences of other people how to win a cavalry based Mongol army with combined arms on plains.From my experience im not going to fight the buggers anywhere else then good terrain,behind a wall or in a river choke point from now on with European troops. I bet Orda will be proud of his boys,if he reads this post.

[IsItStillThere]

I like modern armies too. Crushing opponents with a pike and shot army in 1250 is fun.

Some of us have a major problem with this...gunpowder units shouldn't be available until much later...kindof ruins the historical immersion factor for me. Sure, let's change history...but we should at least be able to do it in a realistic context.

[dopp]

The computer doesn't build musketeers and pikes until a lot later (bombards a bit earlier), so if you don't build them yourself then you can have time progress "realistically" and have fun with knights and longbowmen. Calling for late-era troops to be nerfed (and submitting it to CA as a 'bug') so that feudal troops are equal to them ruins the game for those who actually like the late-era and want returns on their investment. 15 additional turns and 27k florins for buggy musketeers is no joke atm. The same effort for buggy and nerfed musketeers that get shot to bits by any decent archers is even less fun.

@Kagemusha: Landsknechts sux, sorry. Good stats but no armor. Arquebusiers have poor range compared to muskets. Serpentines not so good against horses in open formation. No wonder you got shot to pieces. Even late-period armies must be flexible in the kind of forces they field. Get some horse archers yourself to replace the 2-handers and artillery, especially since Mongol HA are weaker than the mercs you can hire (no armor).

[Marius Dynamite]

Those Serpentines are really good aren't they? I was playing a 1v1 practice with a fellow clan member. I ript him apart with 2 Serpentines. The next battle he took catapults and went behind his infantry. His tactic was obviously to protect them with inf and get close and destroy me with them. My serpentines accuracy was phenomenal.. they ripped through his inf and destroyed the catapults.

Arquebusiers aren't much good to me. For Gun troops, It's all about how many volleys I get into the enemy as they charge or killing enemy archers. Arquebusiers are not good for either. Mainly I use them to shoot the sides of the enemy.

Pikemen have low stats but the seem to get an awesome boost from their formation. The stats are misleading. They are still like Phalanx and Phalangists in RTW though, not good enough against heavy Infantry. Although with some clever tactic Phalangists armies could beat Roman Infantry.

I don't want Musketeer reduced in strength at all. I think they are perfect the way they are. They are strong in Multi, but they arebeatable if you use some initiative, which people seem to lack because they want to fight battles their way instead of overcoming their enemies army.

Modern armies should be more powerful. It wouldn't make sense otherwise.

@Kagemusha: The army you used against Mongols on grassy plain is a good one. Important thing to remember is its an army which can beat any army in good condition. A General would know that army would be successful on a river for example. Therefore your army is good in the sense of campaign and has the ability and balance to beat all others.That is this army:

And my HRE late army:

1 General
5 Landsknecht
2 Zwei Händers
4 Arquebusiers
2 Gothic Knights
2 Imperial Knights
4 Serpentines

I think its only modern armies which offer a good variation like that.

[BigTex]

and all professional troops should have attack and defense values comparable to feudal troops. They should also have comparable or higher morale.

No no no and no. Attack strength of a unit is measured by the speed and lethality of its animation. The attack stat is mearly there to support the animation. The halberdiers and pikemen have simply the fastest, simplest and most lethal animation. Raising their attack would turn them into supermen. Most late troops, except mercenarys, get excellent armor once they've been upgraded. Militia pikemen end up with plate armor.

The main advantage of late units is truly their speed to mass produce and their low upkeep. France alone has the ability to pour out pikemen from both cities and castles with upkeep at only 155. They may have low armor, but you can get 2 units of pikemen for the price of one unit of armored sergeants.

The general change to late units is to change into more of a successor state army of RTW. More of a imobile machine that will decimate anything in front of it. But it becomes very vulnerable to quick and manueverable armies, like the mongols. Best bet to kill the mongols in the late period is to hole up in your castles and cities. That will give pikes near invulnerability in the streets, and little worry of arrows.

[dopp]

Pikemen have no armor. The armor upgrades are not working and half-plate pikemen have less armor than troops with padded (3 vs 4).

I actually have no complaints with pikemen when they work correctly. The first time I used completely unarmored Tercios in open battle they saw off dismounted Norman knights with three silver chevrons. I now use modded Tercios with armor set to approximate what they should be getting (heavy mail = 7, mine are modded to 6) and they work fine. They just bug a whole lot and it's impossible to attack with them.

One thing, take them off guard mode unless expecting the enemy to charge, otherwise they don't fight properly half the time.

[lars573]

Some of us have a major problem with this...gunpowder units shouldn't be available until much later...kindof ruins the historical immersion factor for me. Sure, let's change history...but we should at least be able to do it in a realistic context.

Yes because you areable to build them means you of course have too.

[dopp]

Yes because you areable to build them means you of course have too.

Control, you must learn control.

[dopp]

Some of us have a major problem with this...gunpowder units shouldn't be available until much later...kindof ruins the historical immersion factor for me. Sure, let's change history...but we should at least be able to do it in a realistic context.

Check out the blog for update 2 and see how CA will shaft late armies:

As a teaser for Update 2, we’re currently playing with some of the fixes and tweaks and have to say, you will absolutely love the more aggressive Scotland and Mongol campaign AI, more naval assaults, an even more consistent less powerful cavalry charge, less devastating gunpowder units and last but not least, stronger 2-handed axe men and billmen.

Love? I think not. 27k and 15 turns per city for nerfed musketeers (retinue longbows and other elite archers only require level 5 barracks in castle). As I recall, the suggestion was for musketeers etc. to be more expensive in multiplayer and be available later in campaign game, so they decide to nerf them instead...