Nothing can withstand a modern army (in theory)

[IsItStillThere]

I like modern armies too. Crushing opponents with a pike and shot army in 1250 is fun.

Some of us have a major problem with this...gunpowder units shouldn't be available until much later...kindof ruins the historical immersion factor for me. Sure, let's change history...but we should at least be able to do it in a realistic context.

[dopp]

The computer doesn't build musketeers and pikes until a lot later (bombards a bit earlier), so if you don't build them yourself then you can have time progress "realistically" and have fun with knights and longbowmen. Calling for late-era troops to be nerfed (and submitting it to CA as a 'bug') so that feudal troops are equal to them ruins the game for those who actually like the late-era and want returns on their investment. 15 additional turns and 27k florins for buggy musketeers is no joke atm. The same effort for buggy and nerfed musketeers that get shot to bits by any decent archers is even less fun.

@Kagemusha: Landsknechts sux, sorry. Good stats but no armor. Arquebusiers have poor range compared to muskets. Serpentines not so good against horses in open formation. No wonder you got shot to pieces. Even late-period armies must be flexible in the kind of forces they field. Get some horse archers yourself to replace the 2-handers and artillery, especially since Mongol HA are weaker than the mercs you can hire (no armor).

[Marius Dynamite]

Those Serpentines are really good aren't they? I was playing a 1v1 practice with a fellow clan member. I ript him apart with 2 Serpentines. The next battle he took catapults and went behind his infantry. His tactic was obviously to protect them with inf and get close and destroy me with them. My serpentines accuracy was phenomenal.. they ripped through his inf and destroyed the catapults.

Arquebusiers aren't much good to me. For Gun troops, It's all about how many volleys I get into the enemy as they charge or killing enemy archers. Arquebusiers are not good for either. Mainly I use them to shoot the sides of the enemy.

Pikemen have low stats but the seem to get an awesome boost from their formation. The stats are misleading. They are still like Phalanx and Phalangists in RTW though, not good enough against heavy Infantry. Although with some clever tactic Phalangists armies could beat Roman Infantry.

I don't want Musketeer reduced in strength at all. I think they are perfect the way they are. They are strong in Multi, but they arebeatable if you use some initiative, which people seem to lack because they want to fight battles their way instead of overcoming their enemies army.

Modern armies should be more powerful. It wouldn't make sense otherwise.

@Kagemusha: The army you used against Mongols on grassy plain is a good one. Important thing to remember is its an army which can beat any army in good condition. A General would know that army would be successful on a river for example. Therefore your army is good in the sense of campaign and has the ability and balance to beat all others.That is this army:

And my HRE late army:

1 General
5 Landsknecht
2 Zwei Händers
4 Arquebusiers
2 Gothic Knights
2 Imperial Knights
4 Serpentines

I think its only modern armies which offer a good variation like that.

[BigTex]

and all professional troops should have attack and defense values comparable to feudal troops. They should also have comparable or higher morale.

No no no and no. Attack strength of a unit is measured by the speed and lethality of its animation. The attack stat is mearly there to support the animation. The halberdiers and pikemen have simply the fastest, simplest and most lethal animation. Raising their attack would turn them into supermen. Most late troops, except mercenarys, get excellent armor once they've been upgraded. Militia pikemen end up with plate armor.

The main advantage of late units is truly their speed to mass produce and their low upkeep. France alone has the ability to pour out pikemen from both cities and castles with upkeep at only 155. They may have low armor, but you can get 2 units of pikemen for the price of one unit of armored sergeants.

The general change to late units is to change into more of a successor state army of RTW. More of a imobile machine that will decimate anything in front of it. But it becomes very vulnerable to quick and manueverable armies, like the mongols. Best bet to kill the mongols in the late period is to hole up in your castles and cities. That will give pikes near invulnerability in the streets, and little worry of arrows.

[dopp]

Pikemen have no armor. The armor upgrades are not working and half-plate pikemen have less armor than troops with padded (3 vs 4).

I actually have no complaints with pikemen when they work correctly. The first time I used completely unarmored Tercios in open battle they saw off dismounted Norman knights with three silver chevrons. I now use modded Tercios with armor set to approximate what they should be getting (heavy mail = 7, mine are modded to 6) and they work fine. They just bug a whole lot and it's impossible to attack with them.

One thing, take them off guard mode unless expecting the enemy to charge, otherwise they don't fight properly half the time.

[lars573]

Some of us have a major problem with this...gunpowder units shouldn't be available until much later...kindof ruins the historical immersion factor for me. Sure, let's change history...but we should at least be able to do it in a realistic context.

Yes because you areable to build them means you of course have too.

[dopp]

Yes because you areable to build them means you of course have too.

Control, you must learn control.

[dopp]

Some of us have a major problem with this...gunpowder units shouldn't be available until much later...kindof ruins the historical immersion factor for me. Sure, let's change history...but we should at least be able to do it in a realistic context.

Check out the blog for update 2 and see how CA will shaft late armies:

As a teaser for Update 2, we’re currently playing with some of the fixes and tweaks and have to say, you will absolutely love the more aggressive Scotland and Mongol campaign AI, more naval assaults, an even more consistent less powerful cavalry charge, less devastating gunpowder units and last but not least, stronger 2-handed axe men and billmen.

Love? I think not. 27k and 15 turns per city for nerfed musketeers (retinue longbows and other elite archers only require level 5 barracks in castle). As I recall, the suggestion was for musketeers etc. to be more expensive in multiplayer and be available later in campaign game, so they decide to nerf them instead...