What to do against the Seleucids...

**dumuzi** · 12-12-2006, 16:42

Recently, ive been playing as the Armenians, and have done alright for myself....that is until those damn Macedonians in the south declared war on me! Ive found that both individual battles and larger conflicts between the two powers have tended to go back and forth. My cavalry and infantry usually break up their light infantry and hurt their phalanxes, but cannot get a decisive advantage against their quality troops. Recently, theyve been focusing more of their considerable wealth on me, and ive been slowly loosing hard won territory. The problem isnt so much the number of soldiers they have though, but rather the quality. Ive found that even if i surround a unit of foot companions with decent medium infantry, and use shock cavalry to charge their rear, i cannot beat them, and my troops are the ones who break! Any suggestions? A first one would me "dont fight with the Seleucids in the early/middle game," but im wondering if theres any way to defeat their uber units; it seems like their good phalanxes are near unbeatable.

**Moros** · 12-12-2006, 18:13

Playing as Haysdan and kicking seleukid butt.
I noticed that:
1:your light infantry. the light infantry are good for keeping units pinned, and to fight of cavalry but they should always fight in mass. 1 unit is nothing. Also Do'nt expect them to beat the good units they aren't good enough for that.
2: your body guards. Use them, I usually have 4 generals in an army for this. They are free and damn good. Attack with them the pinned up units from behind keep them together. But retreat them if your general gets in to much danger. They are too usefull to throw away.
3: beat their cavalry first. If you beat their cavalry, you've practically won. Unless they outnumber you or have alot of heavy infantry. Anyway, for taking care of phalanxes, the slingers are the guys for this job. They are fast and are able to kill all units at respectable rate. They are most effective from behind and when they're quite close. They can come close as they are much faster, ofcourse make sure they don't go melee.
4: Horse archers, they do even a better job than your normal archers and can retreat without being chased when theyr ammo is out: they kill but they don't sustain any casualties.
5: Archers. Flaming arrows helps to make units rout. And they are faster than the slow heavy infantry whcih they can shoot at with their bows. Make sure you attack from behing or from the no shield flank. They aren't as effective as slingers tough.
6: heavier infantry. You will be able to produce heavier infantry. They can win in melee from the lower units but your elites are no match for the seleukid's. Yet they are a fine addition to an army. They key unit however remain heavy cavalry, fast missile infantry, missile cavalry. Read the descriptions. Time after time they tell how the Armenians fought. Their units are the most effective, used this way. So then why not fight this way?

If you go south make sure you take Seluekeia and Susa, it's where their best units come from (except for Antiochea) and they are quite big. Certainly a good addition for your economy and a big loss for their economy and army.

**Aymar de Bois Mauri** · 12-12-2006, 19:00

Alternative:

Get a good all cavalry army to make their armies run around the battlefield getting tired while you pick and decimate their least armoured troops (a lot of HA micro-management here). After having secured numerical advantage just charge and repeat with your heavy cav. Have a resuplier army nearby to replenish your battle army after the victory. Use these 2 armies as a raiding team to go deep in to enemy territory and ravage their cities. Raze them to the ground. This will hamper their developement and only allow them to field Pantodapoi armies (=easy kills) after this.

**Teleklos Archelaou** · 12-12-2006, 19:06

Also, stay on their good side for as long as you can. Give them a little money every year. You can take a risk by sending spies into their cities in the east - divert their attention to provinces there by helping them to rebel. Just don't get caught.

**Gazius** · 12-12-2006, 19:16

How much is a decent tribute? Playing as Baktria I'd like to consolidate the rebels under my empire, and then expand across the end of arabia into ptolemy territory before finally swinging 'round to attack seleukia.

**-Praetor-** · 12-12-2006, 19:40

Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

Also, stay on their good side for as long as you can. Give them a little money every year. You can take a risk by sending spies into their cities in the east - divert their attention to provinces there by helping them to rebel. Just don't get caught.

Acutally factions get angry when they`re being spied?

Lol, never considered that. No wonder everybody hates me.

**Moros** · 12-12-2006, 20:33

I wouldn't keep peace for to long. Conquer a rebel settlement or two, build up your army,... MAke sure you build your mines as quick as you can. Why you shouldn't wait to long? How longer you wait the more and better units they have. If you struck soon you'll see only a few pezhetairoi and if you verry lucky (or infortunate, depens on you) you'll see a agyraspidai. Go fast and go for seleukeia and Susa. If you got these you got two of their big 4. The others being Antiochea and that settlement in Anatolia where they can get mines. Having these two and the 2 north of these, will have made you strong enough for building up and conquering them. The only city that will produce elites somewhat soon left is Antioch, but they should be dealing with the Ptolemaioi. (Make them your allies, and if you can afford it perhaps give them some cash to keep them Sel. buzzy.)

**dumuzi** · 12-12-2006, 21:12

What excellent advice! Thank you very much. I have definitely been misusing the missile troops. Its always a temptation just to let loose as soon as the enemy phalanxes come into range, but it makes a huge difference if you wait until you can hit them in the back. Targeting cav first is also a good point. I think in general its a good idea to kill the fastest soldiers first and then work your way down. At least thats certainly true when you have an advantage in cav and light infantry, but is probably a good guideline for life, as the saying goes. When you strip away light infantry and cav then its easy to make one phalanx break off from the battle line and to surround it with missile troops without getting pinned down. Re the generals, do you think its worth it to take them away from governing settlements?
But thanks a lot for the great advice, its already been helping me reverse some of my defeats, and i think i might be able to pull out of this difficult position.

**dumuzi** · 12-12-2006, 21:25

Yeah, i do think its better to attack right away. In my experience, you really have to watch out with the better soldiers the Seleucs get later on. Plus, they are actually in a somewhat precarious position in the beginning, and wont be able to focus on you alone right away.
The cav option is basically what ive been doing, and it does work quite well. The trick is to make sure that you can get one unit of their guys separated from the others, and is quite a fun, tricky battle. It also makes you feel like a million dollars when your crumby, light army defeats a tough successor force!

**Tuuvi** · 12-13-2006, 05:07

kinda of topic, but once in a .74 pontic campaign I accidentaly went to war with the seleucids early on in the game. I sent a diplomat to get a ceasefire but they wouldn't accept, so on a whim I demanded that they became my protectorate, and they accepted. I never worried about them after that.

**Moros** · 12-13-2006, 11:00

@Dumuzi: IT depens on the settlement and the governer traits. It's mainly a good idea in the start when you have more generals than settlements.

@Lignator: lol!

**Subedei** · 12-13-2006, 12:45

Playing Bactria in one of my campaigns I try to deal with Seleucids as follows:

- try to get an alliance with Ptholemaians [sp?] (Egypt), Macedonia, Konion, and pretty much all the neighbors of the seleucids [as far as possible, you won´t get all of them]
- send spies to the Near East and check when heavy conflicts break out there [with Egypt or the Macedonians], as this will focus their attention on the Western part of their vast empire
- plaster your way into their Empire with spies to check their supply routes [evtl. place some HA there to cause a little bit of distortion] and try to get some cities as soon as a war breaks outi n the West
- build those cities up as sonn as possible [walls, streets & army staff]
- the above emntioned [esp. HA against phalanx units work fine for me]

**Moros** · 12-13-2006, 13:03

Also one thing I forgot to mention. You can make their settlements have less public order by putting your spies in them. This way you can mek them rebel and then steal their settlements without a war declaration. Or with a different army inside of them.

**quende** · 12-15-2006, 16:22

I'm also playing as the Hayasad, on H/H and had a major problem with them in the start. Me and Pontos fought against them, but the Seleucids just crushed Pontos and took over their lands. Leaving me alone to fight against them (Ptolemy being allied and friends of the Selesucids).

The only that saved me from the fate of Pontus was my mines, and the tactics mentioned with faster archers and horses to separate and pin down and crush one phalanx at time. I specially hated the charaprakts (spelling) and more heavy phalanxes they have thrown at my forces.

It's hard, but it's a pleasure every time I manage to take a town from them. (Just kicked them out of asia minor after 20-30 years of constant warfare). One thing to do is to recruit mercenary troops in asia minor and other parts that has better infantry than the Hai to work as stoppers for the most heavy units and hit them hard in the back with a horse. I'm hoping to get decent infantry when I'm built out the local training centers in asia minor.

Quende