The Papacy

**gingergenius** · 12-12-2006, 01:04

I hate them.

I'm playing as the English, and began to get loads of cardinals elected until I had a monopoly in the College and soon there was an English Pope. Having eliminated every other Catholic faction, I thought that an English pope might support an English faction all alone against heathens. No, they go and ally with Russia, who I am at war with.

I also thought an English Pope might stop the Inquisition. In a period of about 10 years, my 3 best generals (8/7 *) were all excecuted, one of whom I had trained up from 0 stars and had perfect traits & retinue. With assassins in MTW2 useless, I decided enough was enough and the Pope needed to be taught a lesson. So, I besieged and exterminated Rome, their last remaining city. Usually when a faction's last city is gone, they go too. Not the papacy. Their @*^;ing inquisitors are still executing my generals and merchants left, right and centre. I sniffed out the woods where the pope was hiding and with an army full of siege weapons, killed him. I did this to all his successors (my remaining cardinals who made it to Pope) until there was no pope.

I'd have thought that with no settlements, nor faction leader, the Papacy should have gone by now, rather than inquisiting my generals. What's more, I struggle to see how they are still the most powerful finincial faction. They can't have any territories left because I own all of the settlements that aren't in the Middle East and Caucasus, which are all shared between Russia and the Egyptians.

Why won't they go away???!!!!

**sapi** · 12-12-2006, 01:22

The papacy can never be destroyed :P Yes, it can be really annoying, but being able to do so would negate its effect (i remember in mtw i conquered the papacy as the italians at around turn 20 and they never managed to retake the province).

As to them being the best financial faction, it's probably because, with no cities left, they're not spending any of the money that they have earned.

**CaesarAugustus** · 12-12-2006, 01:27

Doesn't the papacy ask a faction for a province to move into? Where exactly do they go once Rome is conquered?

**CrownOfSwords** · 12-12-2006, 01:57

Papacy is easy as hell to control, in my english campaign i bribe them with 40k gold every about 10 turns or so which keeps my rating at maximum which allows me to do whatever i want.

**sapi** · 12-12-2006, 03:26

Yeh, i've taken up giving them a 10k gift when my reputation drops (usually financed from the sacking of the catholic city which caused the drop in the first place ;) )

**Handel** · 12-12-2006, 04:33

In the real history the Pope don't control the Inquisition. It was created by the spanish king and he was the only one who has the power to control them. This is one of the reasons for the bad "glory" of the Inquisition - the catholic church used every mean in their possesion to discredit them. Actually the Inquisition had nothing in common with the things we see in today movies.
The time of the creation the Inquisition was the time of purging the Moors from Iberia. A couple of years before this a fake converts opened the gates of Genoa to the turks (not sure if it was Genoa), so the Inquisition was created only to check the credibility of the converts. The Torquemada inquisition HAD NO AUTHORITY over the christians.
For the several hundred years of its existance the inquisition sentenced to death about 1500 people - those are documented numbers. The most ferocious critics of the inquisition say the numbers are actually about 10 times more - up to 15,000 people.
This may seem much, but for one only century the german prosecutors killed for herecy and witchcraft about 30,000 people and in England are killed almost 100,000 (remember Mark Twain?).

**Sarmatian** · 12-12-2006, 05:26

Inquisitors should leave you alone when you are excommunicated. Since you have no relations with the pope, inquisitors don't have any authority over you. What is the pope going to do? Excommunicate you again?

Excommunicated General: Under whose authority are you here?
Inquisitor: Under authority of the Pope!
Excommunicated General (looking at his assistants, who are discretly laughing, and then turns to inquisitor with a smile on his face): And why have you come here?
Inquisitor: To put you on trial for heresy!
Excommunicated General (now laughing out loud):You and what army?
Inquisitor (looking at all those armed-to-the-teeth knights): Err, I might have been mistaken... I actually came to put this chicken on trial. Yes, yes, that's it. This chicken is guilty of heresy! Come here, chicken, you are going to face the flames...

**sapi** · 12-12-2006, 06:19

^^ Ditto for priests in enemy lands.

Orthodox General: What are you doing here?
Imam: Spreading the Muslim faith milord
Orthodox General: Is that so?
Imam: Yes milord
*Orthodox General chops off Imam's head

**John Johnston** · 12-12-2006, 12:16

I can see it now... a "close borders to undesirables" button. One click, and all foreign diplomats, deranged holy men, mischevious merchants and psychopathic pyromaniacs are expelled from your lands.

Possibly tied to a "just damn well execute anyone who doesn't recognise the supremacy of the Crown" button, which would be like the above only sharper.

Restricting the Inquisitors to only being able to attack Agents might be an alternative. But I'd rather be able to sling the buggers out of the Kingdom. On a trebuchet.

**Sir Moody** · 12-12-2006, 12:50

Originally Posted by Handel

In the real history the Pope don't control the Inquisition. It was created by the spanish king and he was the only one who has the power to control them. This is one of the reasons for the bad "glory" of the Inquisition - the catholic church used every mean in their possesion to discredit them. Actually the Inquisition had nothing in common with the things we see in today movies.
The time of the creation the Inquisition was the time of purging the Moors from Iberia. A couple of years before this a fake converts opened the gates of Genoa to the turks (not sure if it was Genoa), so the Inquisition was created only to check the credibility of the converts. The Torquemada inquisition HAD NO AUTHORITY over the christians.
For the several hundred years of its existance the inquisition sentenced to death about 1500 people - those are documented numbers. The most ferocious critics of the inquisition say the numbers are actually about 10 times more - up to 15,000 people.
This may seem much, but for one only century the german prosecutors killed for herecy and witchcraft about 30,000 people and in England are killed almost 100,000 (remember Mark Twain?).

i think you may be confusing the SPANISH inquisition with the "real thing" - the Spanish inquisition was a local group but there were Inquisitors wandering around all the lands

In the 1230s the Church responded to the failures of the episcopal inquisition with a series of papal bulls which became the papal inquisition. The papal inquisition was staffed by professionals, trained specifically for the job. Individuals were chosen from different orders and secular clergy, but primarily they came from the Dominican Order. The Dominicans were favored for their history of anti-heresy, education, and skill in debate. As mendicants, they were accustomed to travel and not interested in personal gain. Unlike the haphazard episcopal methods, the papal inquisition was thorough and systematic, keeping detailed records. Some of the most useful medieval documents from the Middle Ages involving first-person speech by medieval peasants come from papal inquisition records.

These were the first organised Inquisitors - under the papancy's direction but not control. But even these weren't the first inquisitors or even the Papancy's first attempt (see the Episconpal Inquisition) but the point stands.

In real life most inquisitions were local affairs handled by the local clergy under the control of local authorities (ie the King and his Nobles) they had a hard time doing more than prosecuting peasants without the support of the local lords nobles - there are a few cases recorded where an Inquisitor tried to prosecute a local lord and ended up exiled (and several were assassinated) - the game doesnt simulate this very well at all

**diotavelli** · 12-12-2006, 13:56

The Torquemada inquisition HAD NO AUTHORITY over the christians.

This is plain wrong. The Spanish Inquisition ONLY had authority over Christians.

In 1492, Isabella and Ferdinand were faced with large Muslim and Jewish minorities who were given the choice essentially between conversion or getting out of Iberia.

Vast numbers converted in form only and continued to follow their real faiths in private. This meant they were baptised Christians and therefore subject to Church authority but, because they were practising other faiths, they were heretics. The Holy Inquisition already existed but Isabella and Ferdinand applied to the Papacy for permission to set up a Spanish version to deal specifically with their large 'false converts' problem - something no other European country faced.

As the previous post notes, the Inquisition first developed in the early thirteen century, some 250 years prior to the Spanish Inquisition's creation.

The game's handling of Inquisitors is completely unrealistic. Senior establishment figures (bishops, cardinals, nobles and kings) frequently fell foul of the Pope or the local Church for a whole variety of reasons (consanguinous marriages, adultery, support of heretics, interference in Church affairs) and they might be excommunicated for a period - but the number sent to an Auto da fe was miniscule.

A more realistic approach would be to have Inquisitors investigate provinces or armies and lay them under Interdict if they find just cause (or have been bribed enough by the faction's enemies). An army under Interdict would face desertion, have movement restrictions, low morale and be fair game for any Catholic opponent; a province would lose all benefits from religious buildings or characters, would suffer a loss of income (diminished trade) and would have recruitment restrictions.

Basically, Inquisitors would be able to place individual provinces and armies under a mini-excommunication, hampering efforts in a given area until the Pope forgave them and generally being a nuisance - but without executing your best general halfway through a Crusade.

**zerathule** · 12-12-2006, 15:32

Originally Posted by diotavelli

In 1492, Isabella and Ferdinand were faced with large Muslim and Jewish minorities who were given the choice essentially between conversion or getting out of Iberia.

Hmm ...
Funny wording of "Ethnical Cleansning" ...
Jews and Muslims had the choice between death and conversion, not exile and conversion ...

**diotavelli** · 12-12-2006, 17:12

Jews and Muslims had the choice between death and conversion, not exile and conversion ...

Wrong. The Jews and Muslims were given a choice between exile and conversion. There were no mass executions of Muslims - the nearest was the suppression of revolts of Moriscos, who were technically (from a Catholic viewpoint, at least) no longer Muslim.

The expulsion of the Muslims from Iberia is a well-documented fact. You can check out writers like Gil Gonzales Davila, if you want confirmation. Having spent a day in the Cervantes Institute in London reading original documentation from the period (in Latin and medieval Castilian!), I feel confident I'm right about this.

Funny wording of "Ethnical Cleansning" ...

Not ethnic cleansing: genuine converts were allowed to stay. If all the Muslims and Jews were put to death, why is the Cortes Generales of Andalusia passing a law granting recognition to the 5 million Moroccans descended from exiled Moriscos? Why is the same being considered for Sephardi Jews of a similar background?

Check the facts.