Samurai Warlords XIX

[Tomisama]

Samurai Warlords XIX

The battle for Mizu Nine this last Sunday, was won by Aggony Ducky.

896 Kills minus 391 Losses, equals a Score of 505.

Congratulations Lord Ducky

But that wasn’t the most outstanding feat of the day.

I a final 2v2, Ducky racked up what I think is the highest kill score we’ve see in this competition (not sure). Although basically fighting alone (I bombed out early, just not having a good day), he managed to 1070 Kills before biting the dust. But that’s not the most interesting part. He did this using upgraded units. Three Ashi Yari @ v2, and four No-Dachi @ v1.

This is a rarity for people playing this mod. Most take no upgrades, ever! Figuring that they are not worth the cost.

Hmm, what’s going to happen next?

[AggonyDuck]

Actually, I didn't get the highest kill score seen in the competition yet. I've got a logfile with CBR killing 1213 in a battle during the Samurai Warlords XVII session and later on during the same session, in the failed attack by me, Tomi and Yuuki, I managed to get 1224 kills. But I wouldn't be surprised if CBR has gained higher kills during one of the earlier sessions.

Anyway I was testing the use of Ashis on Sunday. Initially I tried them at v0 in the first game and I was impressed by their speed. So in the second game in winter, where I had saved a lot of florins by buying Cavalry Archers over Heavy Cavalry, I decided to test out what valoured up Yari Ashigaru could do. Well overall I liked their performance, their better speed allowed them to have greater mobility than Yari Samurai and also allowed them to catch cavalry a bit better, while still having the same combat power as v0 YS. Additionally they also had +2 morale compared to the v0 YS, but this cost me an additional 178 florins. If they face any infantry stronger than v0 YS, they're pretty much done for.


About the v1 Nodachi. Nodachi have always been my favourite infantry unit in STW and that is also the case in Samurai Wars. Initially when I played earlier versions of Sam Wars, I had used v1 Nodachi as my mainstay infantry (the 10k days). They had been the perfect complement to my rather cav heavy armies. But when I started playing the new version of Sam Wars with the new 9k florin standard my old army selection had been mauled. I could no longer afford the old 4 NC, 1 YC, 3 CA, 4 v1 ND and 4 musks army I had used previously, simply because I couldn't afford it.

At first I tried the same army type, but I replaced the v1 ND with v0 ND and overall the results were pretty poor. The lack of spears in my army made it rather weak against the yari heavy armies of this version. Eventually I was forced to start using spears. This meant that I had to reduce the amount of cavalry in my armies and go for a combined arms approach instead.

I wanted a strong shock infantry to deal with enemy Yari's, but I've always disliked Monks and they cost you an arm and leg, so I had make do with the Nodachi.

Nodachi at v0 have always seemed to me as light shock infantry, which is very vulnerable to pretty much anything, so I wanted a unit that would combine the offensive nature of the ND with a bit more staying power. Eventually I remembered my v1 Nodachi, from the previous versions and decided to give them a go. Somehow the addition of that +1 valour had made my Nodachis something of a medium infantry unit, while still retaining the initial strengths of the ND. Balance wise the unit still loses in head on fights against HC, NC, WM and Naginata, but at the same time it fares a lot better against any opposition. I had found the unit that suited me and I believe the performance of my Nodachis speak for themselves.

[Puzz3D]

Those two particular upgrades, V2 YA at 578 koku and V1 ND at 850 koku, essentially provide two new unit types that are still affordable within a 9k army. These two units still occupy proper positions in the spear/sword/cav RPS, so I don't think they break the stat. They are both high speed infantry, and can operate more independently with their increased morale. They have a higher kill rate than either YS or WM respectively, but are vulnerable to archers.

Keep in mind that upgrades do not increase a unit's combat power proportionate to the cost of the upgrade. For instance using a V0 ND costing 500 as the basis, a V1 ND costs 850 and has +2 combat points (approx 1.4x better ) while a V0 WM costs 1000 and has +4 combat points (approx 1.9x better). It would take a V2 ND costing 1445 to equal the combat power of a V0 WM, although it would have better charge and higher morale. So if you don't use valor upgrades, your army will have more raw combat power.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Very Inersting Indeed Tomi :)

Congrats Ducky, can we eat some free duck then :-)?

[Tomisama]

You can eat what you kill


Ducky in that last battle I was totally useless. What I had thought to do was to move over almost behind you to fain a double on CBR. The idea being to draw Methi off his perch, and then turn to catch him on more even ground. But at the time couldn’t figure how to communicate all of that without causing a lengthy delay, so just went dumbly forward.

In hindsight, it would have been worth the effort, in that particular case anyway. And in the future promise to take a few minutes to at least try to make a plan in similar circumstances

[AggonyDuck]

Not totally useless, I managed to get a couple units advantage against CBR due to you. I believe he sent 3-4 units against you, which gave me the upper hand. I wouldn't call 391 kills useless.

[Puzz3D]

I just watched the last 3v3 played last Sunday which I distributed as STW_3v3_60 in the #6 replay group. I noticed that Tomi used 2 CA supported by 1 YC very aggressively, and I wasn't surprised when they were wiped out by R'as with a couple of YC and his hatamoto with R'as only loosing 45 YC. That's a 2200 koku loss for Tomi (24% of his army costwise) vs a 750 koku loss for R'as (8% of his army costwise), and there isn't any offsetting compensation for the attackers who still have to take a fortified hill position.

In STW, the YC cost 475 and the CA 450 at honor 2 which was the default honor level. In Samurai Wars, costs are doubled but CA do not cost 900 because they are modeled closer to their Honor 1 STW equivalent which would be 321 koku. Many players used CA at honor 1 in STW, and experts even used them at Honor 0 (cost 230). We didn't take CA that far in Samurai Wars, but the honor 1 equivalent modeling means CA are not good in melee especially against YC which are their arch enemy. YC are 7 combat points (358%) better than CA in melee, and the YC are 20% faster. Even if a CA is able to make a flanking attack on a YC, it will not be very effective. So, when R'as sends his first YC out to challenge Tomi's 2 CA and 1 YC, the correct move is for Tomi to block R'as YC with his own YC which he did, and then get his 2 CA out of there which he didn't.

It's a fine art of the gameplay to utilize CA to entice the enemy to attack without loosing the CA. Ideally, you try to trap the enemy units that come out to attack the CA with other units or at least shoot the enemy units when they attempt to return to their lines. Archers are quite effective when shooting units that are moving directly away from them.

[Tomisama]

Concerning the CA and YS situation described above (replay 60).

When my three unit contingent was countered by the single yari cav unit, my two archers were pulled away, and my yari sent directly against his. Seeing the downhill disadvantage my men had, I sent the archers back, one in melee on the flank, and the other firing from a short distance.

The fight went on and on in what seemed to be forever, while the hata generals unit got closer and closer. But right up to the point they (the hata) crested the hill, it still looked like I might at least be able to break even. I mean look at the proportion of his yari to mine in the 4th screen.

I expected his men to rout at any moment, and then all of my units would make a run for it. But his yari were like supermen, severally diminished and out numbered, they were still undaunted, and I can’t get loose from them…

At the time this seemed unbelievable to me. But as the battle progressed, and I incurred continuing and similar defeats on those slopes, I must surmise that I was underestimating the height advantage they provided. Steeper than they looked from my vantage point I guess

[Puzz3D]

I measured the gradient where the two YC met as approximately 17 degrees. R'as YC seem to get 9 charge kills while Tomi inflicts 5 charge kills. As the YC continue to fight, R'as YC reaches 50 men at the point Tomi YC has 40 men left. So, R'as YC seems to be achiving a 2 to 1 combat advantage by virtue of the 17 degree slope. Tomi CA charging into the flank of R'as YC equalizes the fighting with both YC arriving at the 37 man mark together and the CA down to 45 men at the same time. At the point of contact by the charging Tomi CA, R'as YC morale is reduced to wavering, but the unit doesn't rout. R'as YC is getting a +2 morale bonus for being on higher ground. R'as YC may well have routed if this action had taken place on flat terrain.

The outnumbering of R'as YC by Tomi's 3 cav is deceptive because R'as has a unit in the trees which is probably close enough (within 75 meters) to provide morale support to his YC. In this case, the outnumbering by Tomi would be 3 to 2, but 2 to 1 is needed to inflict -4 morale on the R'as YC.

Fatigue wasn't a factor since none of the units involved dropped below quite fresh.

[R'as al Ghul]

Yuuki,

what's your opinion on V1 Yari Ashigaru?
I've tested them last Sunday and was very pleased with their performance but my impression could be wrong (Didn't have time to check the replays).
Also my Portuguese Teppos with armour 1 seemed to be very tough to kill. I was quite surprised because of it. Again, the observation could be wrong, my teppos where on a hill during the shootout.

R'as

[Puzz3D]

what's your opinion on V1 Yari Ashigaru?

Since the YA is the lowest cost melee unit, it pays less for its upgrade than more expensive units, and since a valor upgrade provides a 40% combat boost and +2 morale no matter what it costs, V1 YA is the most cost effective upgrade. From what I've seen so far, the 11b playbalance is still ok with upgraded spears, but it's close to being not ok with V2 YA.

Using V1 YA is probably a matter of play style. The V0 YA works for it's intended role which is to provide skirmishers with anti-cav support. The YS doesn't work as well in this capacity due to it's slower speed. If the V0 YA draws ranged fire, that's not the worst and may actually be beneficial since the unit only costs 200. I use YC to support my skirmishers which is more flexible but a lot more costly, and in view of their cost, you don't want to position a YC where archers can shoot them or where they are taking back kills from guns.

The YS unit is there to provide protection against massed cav attacks. It's mostly a defensive unit. In hold formation, it can block a WM long enough for the WM to be flanked by another inf unit. I doubt a V1 YA can to that because it's 2 combat points (44%) weaker on defense. Of course, it's speed would make it a better flanker than a YS, but it has weak charge. You'd be much better off using an ND with it's high charge value for flanking as long as there wasn't any enemy cav around. On the other hand, a V1 YA could provide anti-cav protection to an advancing ND where a YS would lag behind because it's slower. This is how Ducky is using them, but a WM busts that ND + YA combo even when they are both upgraded unless the YA can flank quickly. He could throw in an HC to bust the WM, but a YC could be used to counter that. So, it looks to me like there are counters to all the upgrades currently in use, but you have to have the right stuff in the right place at the right time to do it.

Also my Portuguese Teppos with armour 1 seemed to be very tough to kill. I was quite surprised because of it. Again, the observation could be wrong, my teppos where on a hill during the shootout.

I expect the hill is the main reason the teppos did better. I've noticed that being at a lower height is a substantial disadvantage for both teppos and archers. Armor protection from arrows is roughly linear, i.e. doubling the armor (100% more) cuts the losses in half. Going from armor 2 to armor 3 on a teppo is a 50% improvement in armor at a 40% cost. That will give you around 25% better protection from arrows. Switching from a Portuguese teppo to a Japanese teppo provides a 50% increase in firepower for a 50% cost increase which I think is a better deal. An SA would get the same 25% improvement since that's also an armor 2 unit. These armor upgrades on ranged units don't appear to be worthwhile, but they might be if you can win the shootout with enough men left to do some significant damage on other units. Keep in mind that dead men take their ammo with them, so it isn't like STW where a partial unit had all the unused ammo of the full 60 man unit. This is the reason the archer units have 36 ammo in Samurai Wars rather than the 28 ammo they had in STW. As I recall, significant protection from guns doesn't occur until you get to armor 5 because of the 0.015 armor modifier, although armor 4 does provide somewhat better protection than lower armor values.

[R'as al Ghul]

Using V1 YA is probably a matter of play style. The V0 YA works for it's intended role which is to provide skirmishers with anti-cav support. The YS doesn't work as well in this capacity due to it's slower speed. If the V0 YA draws ranged fire, that's not the worst and may actually be beneficial since the unit only costs 200. I use YC to support my skirmishers which is more flexible but a lot more costly, and in view of their cost, you don't want to position a YC where archers can shoot them or where they are taking back kills from guns.

The idea is to free the Yari Cav from their duty so that they can concentrate on the flanks. Catching a YC between a YA and a YC is also better than between two YC.

Switching from a Portuguese teppo to a Japanese teppo provides a 50% increase in firepower for a 50% cost increase which I think is a better deal.

This is because of their accuracy alone?

These armor upgrades on ranged units don't appear to be worthwhile, but they might be if you can win the shootout with enough men left to do some significant damage on other units.[..]As I recall, significant protection from guns doesn't occur until you get to armor 5 because of the 0.015 armor modifier, although armor 4 does provide somewhat better protection than lower armor values.

But this sounds as if it was futile to buy armour as a gun protection. I'd need a3 at least. It's only good when you expect the enemy to have archers.

[Puzz3D]

The idea is to free the Yari Cav from their duty so that they can concentrate on the flanks. Catching a YC between a YA and a YC is also better than between two YC.

You don't have to upgrade the YA to serve that purpose. V0 YA have a 4 combat point advantage over a YC (44% better on the strike + 44% better on the parry = 88% better overall). The morale of 4 should be adequate because the YA is being used in the vicinity of friendly units.

This is because of their accuracy alone?

Yes. Accuracy alone accounts for the 50% increased kills per volley of the Japanese teppo over the Portuguese teppo. The Japanese teppo were copies of the Portuguese teppo, but were more accurate due to better workmanship.

But this sounds as if it was futile to buy armour as a gun protection. I'd need a3 at least. It's only good when you expect the enemy to have archers.

I think that's correct, but I don't have any test data on guns vs low armor to prove it. What I do recall is doing tests in Samurai Wars on cavalry charging Japanese teppo. At very close range a full 60 gun volley killed up to 19 YC (armor 3) but only up to 13 HC (armor 5). That's why I say high armor has some benefit vs guns. I think NC (armor 4) fell in between, but I didn't record any of those results because I was only testing to ensure that under the worst case situation NC and HC could press home their charge on guns. YC incidentally could not and routed which is the designed behavior.