A question about reforms and MICs

[Arkatreides]

I am a bit confused about how the reforms work in 0.8.

I just had a Polybian reform. For a very long time I had no new units at all, then suddenly one of my cities could recruit the new units (I had a tier 5 MIC). Another city with a tier 5 MIC could still only recruit the old units.

After looking a bit more closerly I found a tier 5 MIC in the builing options of the second city. Upon inspecting this builing, I saw that this would recruit the new units ...

So my question is: Do the old MICs need to be replaced to get the new units?

Also, if we don't replace the old MICs does that mean we can continue producing the old units?

Finally, a slightly unrelated question, but why are Samnite troops no longer available after the Polybian reforms?

[Spoofa]

well i did it the hard way and deleted my tier 5 MIC buildings and rebuilt them from scratch..... BIG time consumer......... But i hear theres a way by getting a tier 5 and then u have the options of rebuilding it or somthing i dont remember the exact details...

[blacksnail]

Yes, you need to upgrade your factional MIC to receive the benefit of the Polybian reforms, and if you leave it as is you will still be able to build Camillan units from that MIC. If you are at MIC 5 already, you will need to rebuild that 5th level. If you are at a lower level, you will upgrade to the next highest. As a player you can choose to leave these buildings at Camillan throughout the Polybian era, but that's certainly more a gameplay decision than a historical approach. (You certainly aren't required to upgrade immediately; it's up to you when you do so.)

The Marian reforms are fundamentally different. Once they come into play you will no longer be able to build Polybian units (or Camillan, if you never upgraded). The Marian MICs will be dropped by script into the cities with Camillan or Polybian factional MICs, which you can then destroy for cash.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Is the system of having to upgrade to the next level in order to get the new units the way it is going to stay? Not to be insulting or derogatory in any way, but it kind of seems stupid. Is this a work around to the CTD button/building thing?

[Foot]

Is the system of having to upgrade to the next level in order to get the new units the way it is going to stay? Not to be insulting or derogatory in any way, but it kind of seems stupid. Is this a work around to the CTD button/building thing?

Why is it stupid? Regardless its the only way we can do it.

Foot

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Why is it stupid? Regardless its the only way we can do it.

Foot

No offence, I know that game/mod devolopers are like mother bears, and I don't want to make fun of you cubs.

But it just seems weird that I have to wait at least three years to build the new units, plus I can have both types of units being recruited at the same time, plus the AI is bound to be confused (not stop building Camilian), plus confusion and whining on the forums , plus starting over the MICs if you maxed the size already.

My main problem is that you can still build Camilian after the reform, if you could build nothing and had to upgrade to build Polybian (ie something)... though then the AI would definately be confused.

Suggestion: The upper tier or two of Camilian MICs can't build anything new (to my knowledge), perhaps they could not even be avalible, so you can't max out your MIC prior to the reform.

[Foot]

Remember that we are talking about a slow process of change, it would make sense to see polybian and camillian troops in the same army - probably. Thats how I justify it.

Foot

[Zaknafien]

Exactly--this change is a process that is developed over time taking years to incorporate the new philosophy and tactics into the army.

Example, someone has an idea ---"hey, Senators, lets equip our soliders with mail hauberks instead of pectorales".

--Argument ensues taking months.

--Decision is reached, Senate says "ok, coolness."

--More months as mail hauberks are produced and distrubuted to newly trained soldiers, possibly on an experimental basis.

--Years later, all soldiers (not really) are theoretically equipped with the new armor.

So as you can see, its not a "presto! we now have polybian era triarii!"

:)

[Arkatreides]

I actually quite like the idea of being able to choose whether to upgrade to Polybian era units or not. One of the things that always bugged me was having these elite (i.e. many chevron) units that all of a sudden can no longer be repaired nor upgraded to anything useful and thus just end up sitting around. Sure it might not be 100% realistic but then neither is not being able to change one unit type into its reformed version (but I guess I have CA to blame for that ;)

Right now I have most of my cities changed to Polybian barracks but only Capua remains pre-Polybian so that my units can be repaired there (and so that I can still recruit Samnites - any replies on why they disappeared in Polybian?)

[blacksnail]

Is the system of having to upgrade to the next level in order to get the new units the way it is going to stay? Not to be insulting or derogatory in any way, but it kind of seems stupid. Is this a work around to the CTD button/building thing?

It is either that or remove Polybian and Augustan reforms entirely, which we won't do.

Part of this is due to engine limitations for the number of buildings available. Of all the factions, the Romani are the most complex when it comes to reforms. The other part is that Camillan to Polybian is a relatively minor change, as is Marian to Augustan. However, Polybian to Marian is such a quantum leap and fundamental restructuring of the Romani army that we automate it.

[blacksnail]

Suggestion: The upper tier or two of Camilian MICs can't build anything new (to my knowledge), perhaps they could not even be avalible, so you can't max out your MIC prior to the reform.

I believe units are slated for Camillan tier 4 and 5, if they aren't already there. If tier 5 Camillan remains empty, we'll likely remove that level from the complex.

[Geoffrey S]

How does the AI handle the camillian-polybian reform?

[blacksnail]

That's part of what this beta is helping us determine - whether or not they need script assistance for the reforms so that you don't get Camillan armies attacking the Casse in 115 BC. It all relates to how often they build MICs. If you aren't seeing any Polybian units whatsoever as a non-Romani faction, particularly in cities you know have the Polybian Era note, we need to know. Limited testing showed that the AI does upgrade their MICs, but we need to know the consistency.

However, Marian MICs are dropped by script for both the player and the AI. The AI shouldn't have any issues with those.

[MafiosoFoSho]

What triggers the different reforms?

Is it all based on dates? Is the different dates/conditions for each faction posted somewhere?

In my roman campaign I got the marius event pop-up, but my guess is that is a vanilla feature that is "just there"

I noticed in Asia there are 'cataract reforms' in different provinces. Is the reforms based on what provinces a faction owns?

[Gazius]

Please read the FAQ before posting.

[-Praetor-]

What triggers the different reforms?

Is it all based on dates? Is the different dates/conditions for each faction posted somewhere?

In my roman campaign I got the marius event pop-up, but my guess is that is a vanilla feature that is "just there"

Here ya go:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...09&postcount=1

Check the chapter IV, EB Gameplay.

You`ll find that EB is a lill bit more complicated than vainilla, since there`s not only Marius`s reform, but also Polybian and Augustian... in addition to Celtic, Saka and Seleukid reforms!!!.

I noticed in Asia there are 'cataract reforms' in different provinces. Is the reforms based on what provinces a faction owns?

LOL

Cheers!!!

[nikolai1962]

Is the system of having to upgrade to the next level in order to get the new units the way it is going to stay? Not to be insulting or derogatory in any way, but it kind of seems stupid. Is this a work around to the CTD button/building thing?

Personally think it is much better this way. Always seemed silly to me how in vanilla your unit recruitment magically switched overnight. In a lot of historical armies big reforms happened very gradually, with elite units being the first to get new equipment, then standard units, with militia level units getting the old equipment handed down etc.