Patch release date confirmed.

[Cheetah]

There is something very wrong with them. Take a unit of any of the 2h axe troops (heavy billmen, tabardariyya, varangian guard, berdiche axemen, or such) and charge a unit of Danish scouts (probably the weakest cav unit). They'll kill a lot in the charge. Now watch the rest of the fight. They'll kill no more than 5 for the remainder of the fight, because the only figure that will actually attack is the unit commander model. The regular troops don't swing against mounted troops. Example from my Byzantine campaign: Mongol horse archers vs Varangian guard in hth combat. There was no charge, as the varangians were on the flank of troops holding a bridge and the mongols just spilled over. Mongol HAs killed 76. Varangian guard killed 0...

Why do you expect your VG or tabardariyya slaughter horses? Of course I understand that people would expect more kills than 0 and I would not mind if 2h axes would be just a slightly (but indeed very slightly) better vs horses. However, from the gamebalance point of view you dont want a unit that costs 490 (tabardariyya) to be able to beat up everything because why would anyone use anything else? At the moment 2h axemen are good vs swords and spears, they can make a draw vs more expensive units. In MP I got 40-50 kills with my tabardariyya and I was rushed. That is not bad for a unit that costs 490 compared to the cost of dismounted CK (630), right? Obviously given their cheap price they need to have a weakness. CA decided that cavs should be their bane. It is fine with me. Perhaps CA overemphasised this weakness, and definitely left it unexplained. I am still waiting for someone from CA to show up and state it clearly that it is not a bug (or state it clearly if it is indeed a bug).
The point is that just beacuse things dont work as you expect, it does not mean that it is a bug. It can be a different balance system (and I would vote for this option atm). You have to experiment and try to understand the big picture before declaring that this or that thing is a "bug".

[RZST]

so the lack of animation on 2h axe units are considered "features"?

i doubt they are.

[Jambo]

Cheetah, I see where you're coming from, but the fact of the matter is 2-handed axes don't attack cav after the charge. Play a custom battle using a weak horse unit and walk up to an AI varangian guard unit and watch how the battle unfolds if you don't believe us. Versus infantry the issue's not so drastic and for their price it probably suffices as it is for MP.

[Cheetah]

so the lack of animation on 2h axe units are considered "features"?

i doubt they are.

What do you mean by lack of animation? When they face sword/spear units they fight ok.

Also, of course I cannot be sure that this is a "feature" or not. That is why I am missing the CA guys making a clear statement.
However, I think that we should be a bit more openminded trying to understand the whole system, instead of judging isolated issues based on our expectations.

[RZST]

THEY DONT MOVE AFTER A CHARGE!
THEY DONT MOVE AFTER A CHARGE!
THEY DONT MOVE AFTER A CHARGE!
THEY DONT MOVE AFTER A CHARGE!
THEY DONT MOVE AFTER A CHARGE!

that clear enough for ya?

[Lorenzo_H]

woooooo patch!

[Cheetah]

THEY DONT MOVE AFTER A CHARGE!
THEY DONT MOVE AFTER A CHARGE!
THEY DONT MOVE AFTER A CHARGE!
THEY DONT MOVE AFTER A CHARGE!
THEY DONT MOVE AFTER A CHARGE!

that clear enough for ya?

Well, they do move but they dont kill. Have you asked yourself the question that why they dont kill?

[Quillan]

I don't expect them to slaughter horses, but I do expect them to fight effectively. Even peasants would have caused more casualties than my VG unit did! I had a city fight in Jerusalem once, my dismounted chivalric knights against a unit of tabardariyya. Yes,I would expect the 700 florin unit to beat the just under 500 florin unit, but both units started at 90 men, and it was a countercharge situation. I had 75 men left, they routed with 30. Out of the 15 I lost, 10 were lost in the charge. I expect them to make a better show of the fight.

[RZST]

better yet, try this.

BYZ vs SCOT
Varangian Guard VS Border Guard (or whatever the cheapest scot horse it)

dont even charge, just sit there and accept the BYZ charge. watch the battle. see who wins.

the scots on my playtime only died during the initial charge, like 10 of em.

[Jagger]

The blog states that 2 hnded axemen are fixed....

"less devastating gunpowder units and last but not least, stronger 2-handed axe men and billmen."

http://www.totalwarblog.com/

So did anyone actually read the blog?

[Faenaris]

The blog states that 2 hnded axemen are fixed....

"less devastating gunpowder units and last but not least, stronger 2-handed axe men and billmen."

http://www.totalwarblog.com/

So did anyone actually read the blog?

Aye, they are fixed, but they were talking about update 2:

As a teaser for Update 2, we’re currently playing with some of the fixes and tweaks and have to say, you will absolutely love the more aggressive Scotland and Mongol campaign AI, more naval assaults, an even more consistent less powerful cavalry charge, less devastating gunpowder units and last but not least, stronger 2-handed axe men and billmen.

And with regard to the patch news:

[Joecartoon.com George Hemp Voice] Oooowwww, yeaaaaaaaah! Shame that the 2-handed fix isn't included, but I'll just adapt the animations myself until the next update.

[Bijo]

The blog states that 2 hnded axemen are fixed....

"less devastating gunpowder units and last but not least, stronger 2-handed axe men and billmen."

http://www.totalwarblog.com/

So did anyone actually read the blog?

I've read the blog and it doesn't say 2-handed axemen and billmen are fixed. "less devastating gunpowder units and last but not least, stronger 2-handed axe men and billmen." The only thing that it's saying is that 2-handed axemen and billmen are stronger. It's not the same as being fixed. Simple logic.

[Cheetah]

I don't expect them to slaughter horses, but I do expect them to fight effectively.

Effectively against whom? The very idea of the RPS system is that a given unit type is effective vs some yet ineffective vs others. It seems that axemen are not supposed to do well vs horses, CA might have overdone this effect but it might be more of a balancing issue then a bug (though it is definitely counter intuitive in case of billmen, as they were anti-cav units in MTW).

[BigTex]

Effectively against whom? The very idea of the RPS system is that a given unit type is effective vs some yet ineffective vs others. It seems that axemen are not supposed to do well vs horses, CA might have overdone this effect but it might be more of a balancing issue then a bug (though it is definitely counter intuitive in case of billmen, as they were anti-cav units in MTW).

Sure they shouldnt dominate cavalry. But they should at least be able to attack them. Currently in the state the animation is in the axemen billmen n other's can't even swing at a cavalry unit, let alone kill it.

Polaxemen and billmen on the other hand should be capable of decimating standing cavalry units after a charge.

[Hochmeister]

What do you mean by lack of animation? When they face sword/spear units they fight ok.

Also, of course I cannot be sure that this is a "feature" or not. That is why I am missing the CA guys making a clear statement.
However, I think that we should be a bit more openminded trying to understand the whole system, instead of judging isolated issues based on our expectations.

I think you make a good point for traditional "axemen" who should be disadvantaged against cavalry but surely not the famous Billmen who afaik their weapon was designed to "hook" armoured Knights from their mounts??

[Betito]

I like to see that there's an improvement in CA's customer care. Definitely, the idea of having blogs to keep the comunity updated was a good idea.


This makes me want to have my new comp and MTW2 even more!!
(So far, all my knowledge comes from the org and a friend who has it)

[Biggus Diccus]

CA decided that cavs should be their bane. It is fine with me. Perhaps CA overemphasised this weakness, and definitely left it unexplained. I am still waiting for someone from CA to show up and state it clearly that it is not a bug (or state it clearly if it is indeed a bug).

CA didn't state it clearly because they are too embarrassed that this error made it to the final game

I'll be using Lusteds mod till next update, so no sweat for me. Lets just hope we don't need it after update 2....

[Oldgamer]

Concerning the 2-handed problem ...

I'm using Lusted's mod, and last night, I saw something I've never seen before. In an action against rebel armored sergeants in Bruge, I closed in on a fight between one of my billmen and the enemy. After a long exchange of blows, the billman got in a blow against the rebel's chest, who then closed his stance into a defensive posture. Then, the billman reached down and hooked the man's legs, and pulled them out from under him. Naturally, he fell on his back. In another second, the billman and one of his mates hacked and stabbed him, respectively.

Until CA fixes this problem, Lusted has a temporary solution!