I need a better Venetian stack

**Musashi** · 12-14-2006, 22:42

I typically use my general, 4 VHI, 4 Italian Spear Militia (Or pike militia), 6 Pavise Crossbowmen, two units of cavalry, and three artillery pieces.

**Jagger** · 12-14-2006, 22:53

If I expect strong enemy heavy cavalry, I definitely want some Venetian heavy infantry to back up my infantry line rather than dismounted knights.

**Amon_Zeth** · 12-14-2006, 22:55

How effective are pike militia/spear militia, anyway? I've heard some people complain about spear units getting destroyed by cavalry charges.

**Handel** · 12-14-2006, 22:59

There is no such thing as "better stack". One stack is better for defence, quite other for attack, third against horse archers, forth for emergency help...

**rios** · 12-15-2006, 02:59

Originally Posted by Handel

There is no such thing as "better stack". One stack is better for defence, quite other for attack, third against horse archers, forth for emergency help...

since venitian can retrain cav militia and pavs in all large+ cities I generally use my defensive armies against horse archers. Cheap units to burn. Once they are experienced it's not that bad.

**Musashi** · 12-14-2006, 23:04

Originally Posted by Amon_Zeth

How effective are pike militia/spear militia, anyway? I've heard some people complain about spear units getting destroyed by cavalry charges.

Pikes and spears survive cav charges better than non-spear units. Italian Spear Militia can hold cavalry much longer than VHI, but VHI will do more damage to the cav unit.

**Jagger** · 12-14-2006, 23:16

I will usually have a front line of pikes or spears if the enemy has significant cavalry. If the enemy has primarily heavy cavalry, pikes are best with their shield wall. If primarily light cavalry, the spear schiltron is best as it doesn't have flanks. Pikes hit on the flanks are massacred. Often it is best to anchor the flanks of your front line with spear schiltrons rather than pikes regardless of what type of cavalry you are facing.

I will back up my front line with a mix of Venetian heavy infantry and/or dismounted feudal knights. The heavy infantry can strike back against any cavalry charge against the front line and the dismounted knights can counter against infantry attack.

Unfortunately, I have found the Venetian archers almost useless. With their armor and bows, initially I felt they would be ideal against eastern armies with their light cavalry and bowmen. Arrows would work perfectly fine against the low armor of eastern armies and the heavy armor of the Venetian archers would protect them against enemy bows. However, I have found the eastern armies use flame arrows to negate the armor advantage. My Venetian archers don't last long against the massed flame arrow attacks of the eastern armies. So IMO, the heavy armor of the Venetian archers provides very little advantage to compensate for their high cost. I have stopped using them as pavise crossbows have far better surviveability at lower costs.

**Jagger** · 12-14-2006, 23:37

Actually, I may have to change my mind about the Venetian archers. I just did a test of three Venetian archers vs three dismounted foot knights. The archers won. The arrows decimated the knights and the charge finished the knights off.

I was kind of surprised. The arrows didn't have a problem with the knights armor even though they aren't armor piercing. In addition, even though the knights have better offense and defense, the archers had the ability to take out the knights in close melee once the knights were reduced by arrows.

I may start using the Venetian archers in my second line against western european armies. They can send arrows into a charging enemy over the front line and then still have the melee capability to counter any portions of my spear line that need melee assistance. I will see how they do.

**Beren Son Of Barahi** · 12-15-2006, 00:48

1 General
1 Caroccio Standard
6 Pavise Crossbow Militia
6 Venetian Infantry
6 Feudal Knights

* i would drop the standard, unless your in a city and defending.
* i would most likely take either pikes or dismounted men at arms or dismounted knights to make up the core inf , they have high defence and can keep the other force pinned in location, and have the venetian inf on the flanks, there high attack is great as a flanking force.
*take less xbows, take some venetian archers.
*i would take some light cavalry, the light cavalry at the top end of the tech tree are awsome, and maybe the quickest light cavalry around.
*some arty would help, trebuchets are great.

so i would go with the following..
1-2 generals
2 xbow (to be out in front taking on missle troops and thinning out the front lines)
2-3 v.archers (behind the lines used to focus fire on shock troops or elites)
4 pikes/dismounted anything (used to hold the line, while others wrap around)
2 venetian heavy infantry (flanking force)
4 heavy horse of anytype (charges flanks and light troops to rout)
2 light horse (used to get behind and take out arty or anything the routs)
2 arty (trebuchets to send forth the cows and break up lines)

**Amon_Zeth** · 12-15-2006, 01:03

What specialities do the Venetian Archers and the Pavise Crossbow Militia have? I'd think that the Xbows would be better all around, seeing as how they have high-powered armor piercing shots and shields to guard against arrow fire.