My M2TW Tirade

[Slicendice]

This is my M2TW tirade. This is not to say I don't like M2TW or the Total War series, but rather, I am disappointed that once again the Total War series has moved farther away from the original and failed to recreated the danger and imminent peril of the enemy AI.

In Shogun Total War every time I had captured half the island I found that the other half had been overrun by one faction. That faction was building thousands of troops and now he was hurling them at me 10,000 at a time. It was all I could do to fall back to a couple of defendable provinces to hold him off while I built another army to land behind him and gut his production centers.

If my troops lost a battle at a key province the enemy horde would pour through and overrun the rest of my lands. Every battle counted and was incredibly exciting.

But not any more. Now the AI launches a war with a few peasants and a heavy armor unit. It doesn't even go after my most valuable cities. The AI builds lots of crappy troops and often does not attempt to build up it's cities and disband lessor troops to make way for elite units.

If all the factions surrounding me suddenly declare war should I be afraid? NO! They might move in and take a city or two, but then they will mill about and do nothing. They won't push their advantage or go after my best Castle first.

Why can't the AI be more aggressive? Not just harder to get along with but really bloodthirsty?


This is going to be the last TW game I buy. It's become a bureaucrats game and not a warrior strategists game.

Bleh!

[BeeSting]

I think the campaign AI is already aggressive enough in that it attacks you for no good reason. It has the tendency to wage war with 3 factions at a time and still declares war on you just because.... I think that's blood thirsty enough, but highly self destructive. Just hope that the programers come up with a better pre-war calculation for the AI: enemy's production rate, amount of soldiers on the surrounding border etc. aren't good enough.

I agree with you about the army composition... it's horrible. having the right composition is half the battle. And if the AI could make better proportioned armies then any battle would be that much harder for the user. And the AI should not rely on auto battle resolve advantage calculations in engaging a players force, because 9 out of 10 times we will prove the calculations/balance bar wrong. It should engage the user's army differently than it does with other AI factions' forces.

[Dan.o6]

I like the game a lot. The campaign AI is more than sufficient and in all of my campains im having a hard time getting by.

[Shahed]

"You call THAT an attack ?"

[Flavius Gonzo]

I think the OP has a point. The only times the AI has attacked with odds that are unfavorable to me have been when I've left settlements only lightly garrisoned -- a problem easily remedied by expanding slower and leaving strong border garrisons behind.

The hardest part of M2TW is managing the economic & diplomatic aspects. I never played STW or MTW, but RTW had the same problem, only once the BI hordes were introduced did I fight my first losing seige battle.

But, I'm still waiting for the Mongol & Timurid invasions... I'm hopefully those will pose some challenging defensive battles. Have to wait and see, I guess!

[Barry Fitzgerald]

The OP has a point...

And a good one...

AI is pretty damn poor on the campaign map, with almost random attacks..with little strategy behind them. Sure it is ok sometimes..but play the HRE and watch everyone declare war on you..even if you do nothing to provoke them.

The problem isnt aggression..it is just poor....I have defeated factions 20 times at the same settlement..yet they keep on pouring men in...you would think the AI would be smart enough..but it isnt.

Add to this even post patch...cavalry still doesnt go where you want it too...sigh...

[pevergreen]

"You call THAT an attack ?"

That's not a knife, THIS is a knife.

[Forward Observer]

In Shogun Total War every time I had captured half the island I found that the other half had been overrun by one faction. That faction was building thousands of troops and now he was hurling them at me 10,000 at a time. It was all I could do to fall back to a couple of defendable provinces to hold him off while I built another army to land behind him and gut his production centers.

If my troops lost a battle at a key province the enemy horde would pour through and overrun the rest of my lands. Every battle counted and was incredibly exciting.

-------------------------------------

This is going to be the last TW game I buy. It's become a bureaucrats game and not a warrior strategists game.

Bleh!

The Hojo horde was a well known problem (bug) in Shogun, but it really only occurred if one was the type that played a slower non-aggressive game. Even before the patch that addressed the horde, one could avoid it by simply playing aggressively, and in doing so one could win the game even on the harder levels with nothing but your basic yari spearmen, yari cavalry, and samurai archers.

Of course this made the combat in game the purest form of a rock, scissor, paper style of combat with a simple risk style map.

It was and still is fun for what it is, but hardly a complex challenge once one learned how to "outgame" the game.

What is even more important for the series is that with each new release a huge faction of players have constantly clamored for more diversity, more complex strategic and diplomatic elements.

I loved Shogun too and still play it occasionally, but I also understand the necessary evolution for the series to survive and in doing so attract a wider range of players. Things change and evolve, so here we are with the current offering, and in my opinion this is not a bad thing.

Personally, I love M2TW just as much and it is safe to say that once again i am losing an inordinate amount of sleep just like I did years ago with Shogun playing "just one more turn".

In the land based combat/strategy classification the TW series was, still is, and will probably continue be the only RTS/tactical combat game that I will play on an almost daily basis.

Cheers

[John Johnston]

I'm a little way into a Moors campaign on VH/VH. The game is patched. The computer opponent is giving me a seriously hard time on the campaign map; after fifty or so turns I'm holding North Africa along to Tunis and most of Spain. Along the way I've had to fight off repeated land and amphibious attacks by balanced full stacks of enemy troops from Milan, Sicily, Spain, Portugal, the Venetians and the Papal States. I have no chance whatsoever of controlling the sea, barely adequate numbers of troops, and the only thing allowing me to make any progress at all is the cash I'm getting from the half-dozen or so merchants I've got stuck down in Timbuktoo, which for any other faction would be veering close to being an exploit.

Post-patch, in my experience, the computer appears to have considerably greater understanding of seaborne attacks and of diplomacy; I've been offered (and accepted) many ceasefires at moments when it was appropriate for the enemy to do so, which was not my experience pre-patch. I've also found the tactical battles significantly improved. Shame the 2h bug isn't fixed, but overall I'm very happy with the patch; I had been getting fed up before.

(...and I have to say, when people talk about Shogun having greater tactical AI, strategic AI, or historical accuracy than any of the successors, it baffles the hell out of me... )

[Slicendice]

Well it's post-patch and I started a H/VH game and I turtled for a long time. I made alliances with every Christian faction including Papal States and had marriages with Denmark and Spain. I expected France to betray me because, well, they're French, but Denmark was a surprise. (Well actually I guess it wasn't. Every game I've played Denmark has come to the aid of France and betrayed an alliance. ) I had been consistently paying them 500 florins a turn to keep the relationship up. I was Trustworthy with all factions and Very Good with Denmark when they took Bruges (they already had Antwerp) with about 6 units. They stopped there and didn't move an inch for many turns even though I was busy with France. (I only play with directly decended generals so I was short handed)

Anyway, my point is Denmark had stacks of troops over in the homeland but it chose to send a small force to take one single city when it could have moved straight through to Caen which was my only Castle in the North. (I always convert Nottingham to a city and my other castle was Toulouse.)

I'm not saying that STW had better AI or the campaign was better. Each new game has offered more diplomacy options and enhancements that make the game more interesting. What I am saying is that I'm not getting an AI that comes after me. It declares war and meanders about and maybe takes a city or two.

If I go out in the world and start conquering I'm going to encounter stacks of troops, but sometimes those stacks will not move to attack me.

I guess my point here is that as long as I don't get too bored and I'm willing to do all the tedious things the game puts forth then eventually I will win. I might lose a city or two and a few battles or fleets, but there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO CHANCE ANYONE CAN LOSE THIS GAME. (unless you're an idiot)

Yes. That's my point. ^^^^^^^^^

[RussianWinter]

I agree. I loved MTW and STW, but when Rome came the series just lost something.

For me it's all summed up in the new campaign map (by new, i mean the MTW2/RTW map). It doesnt improve gameplay in any measurable way. What it has done is create a sandbox far too complex for the AI to handle, as well as asking some severe micromanagement time of the player and completely shafting factions in the "big" regions (Turks, Russia, moors to some extent)

I'd love to think the AI would be improved, but its just too far past the point. After xx patches and expansions, Rome never really got better. I don't expect much different from MTW2.

I still play the game, but its more out of reliving the glory. If these games weren't released with such a devoted fan base, I think they'd be failures.

[Quickening]

Just to pick up on the point that it seems like the Total War series is becoming more like Civilization or something... well, I see that as a good thing. I look forward to the day when conquest is not the only way to achieve victory. It's odd how people can complain about the lack of the Glorious Achievements thing and then complain that it is becoming less about warfare

And seriously, does anyone doubt that the Total War format is the best way to simulate empire building and epic battles so far?
It must be hard to make such a game challenging. Like all games of it's kind, once you have a foothold it is very hard if not impossible to lose. But what's the solution? The only one would be if the AI simply cheated but that would make a lot of people, myself included, unhappy.

Personally, I think CA have done a great job.