New system

[Taohn]

I need to upgrade my rig. Badly. I'm running a Pentium II 450 that has developed a penchant for crashing at the slightest provocation (I think I bought it back in '97 ). It's given me years of faithful service through much abuse, but it's time to retire it. I have a budget of $2000 Canadian (~1734 USD). I've done a lot of reading and put together a list of components that total up to just under budget after taxes. There's a lot of good advice to be had here, so i was hoping you guys could review the list and make some suggestions. In my choice of parts I tried to balance power, longevity, and price. I was going to try to build this one myself (first time), though I have a knowledgeable friend who can help me out in a pinch. Here's what I came up with:


CPU

$369.99 Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 2.4 GHz (1066MHz) 4MB L2 CacheSocket 775 Processor

I think this offers the best balance between power (and longevity) and price. The value of the 6300/6400 is tempting, especially considering the great overclocking, but I don’t have much experience in that area.



MOTHERBOARD

No idea here, could really use some advice. I’d like to stay around $200 unless there’s a really good reason to splurge on the motherboard (like 680i). Like I said, I’m not really into overclocking, but I’d like to learn eventually. So a board that will last a good while (maybe support a processor upgrade in a couple years) and offers some decent features would be ideal. These seemed all right from reading some reviews and the threads around here.


$184.99 Asus P5B-E Socket 775 Intel 965 Express + ICH8R Chipset Dual-Channel DDR2 533/667/800 Gigabit Lan Intel High Definition Audio Firewire e-SATA PCI-Express Graphics Slots 6xSATAII Support Core 2 Duo Processor

-OR-

$199.99 Asus P5B Deluxe Socket 775 Intel P965 Express + ICH8R Chipset Dual-Channel DDR2 533/667/800 8-Channel High Definition Audio Dual Gigabit Lan Firewire Dual PCI-Express Graphic Slots 8 Phase Power Design Heat Pipe Stack Cool 2



HARD DRIVE

$109.99 Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 320GB SATA NCQ 3.0Gb/s 16MB Cache (OEM)

-OR-

$109.99 Western Digital (WD3200KS) Caviar 320GB SATAII 7200RPM 16MB Buffer (OEM)

Anandtech did a comparison of these drives. The WD is better for games and the like, but the Seagate has a 3 year warranty, so I’m leaning in that direction.



MEMORY

$300.00 max for arguments sake, ideally lower. No idea about brand etc. 2 Gigs would be best, I guess. Don't really want to spend more on RAM than CPU, so I could definitely be talked into buying 1 gig, and waiting for the price to come down before adding a second. There seem to be some good deals here, particularly from OCZ:

$199.99 OCZ (OCZ26672048ELGEGXT-K) DDR2 PC2-5400 667MHz EL Gold Edition 2GB (2X1024MB) Dual Channel Kit

-OR-

$259.99 OCZ (OCZ2G8002GK) DDR2-800 PC2-6400 Gold XTC 2GB (2x1024MB) Dual Channel Kit

Is the jump from 5400 to 6400 worth it in terms of performance?



CASE

$164.99 Antec P180 Innovative three-layer side panel case (aluminum, plastic, aluminum)

-OR-

$149.99 Antec P180B Black Innovative three-layer side panel case (aluminum, plastic, aluminum)

Same case, right? Why not if it's $20 less? Also open to other (cheaper) suggestions, but I'm hoping to re-usefor a new system in the future

I’ve read good things about this case, but it’s apparently kind of tricky to wire, so motherboard layout is important, but I’m not sure how to pick the right one.



POWER SUPPLY

no idea. should be from a reputable brand, ~500 – 600 watts, right? These seem like good deals:

$129.99 Thermaltake Silent PurePower W0049RUC 680W Active PFC, EPS 12V and ATX 12V 2.2 Version

$109.99 OCZ (OCZ600GXSSLI) GameXStream 600 Watt Power Supply, Dual GPU, SLI compable



DVD

$34.79 Samsung SH-S182D/BEBN Super-WriteMaster DVDRW 18X/18X BLACK

Is there a drive that really stands out or are they all pretty much the same?



VIDEO CARD

Toughest choice. 8800 series is over budget, and I think it would be wise to wait for the tech to mature a bit and for more cards to become available. But I found a BFG 8800 GTS for $519, so it seems wasteful to spend $400+ on a Dx9 card. So I’d like get a decent performer for anywhere between $200 to 300. Some ideas:

$249.97 BFG GeForce 7950 GT / 512MB GDDR3 / SLI / PCI Express / Dual DVI / HDTV / Video Card

$247.99 HIS Radeon X1650 Pro IceQ Turbo / 512MB GDDR3 / PCI Express / Dual DVI / HDTV / CrossFire Ready

$247.99 HIS Radeon X1650 Pro Silence II / 512MB GDDR3

what’s the difference between #2 and 3?

$249.99 Powercolor X1950Pro ATI Radeon X1950Pro Chipset 256MB PCI-Express



MONITOR

May hold off on monitor, but 20” LCD widescreen if I do get one. Right now I’m thinking either:

$339.99 Samsung SyncMaster 205BW Black Flat panel display TFT 20" 1680 x 1050 / 60 Hz 300 cd/m2 600:1 6 ms 0.258 mm DVI, VGA (HAS version)

-OR-

$219.99 Sceptre X20WG Naga / 20.1" / 5ms / 1000:1 / WSXGA+ 1680 x 1050 / DVI-VGA / Black / Widescreen LCD Monitor with Speakers

Great price on the second one, but I’ve never heard of the brand, so I read the reviews on Newegg. Mostly positive, but stand is supposedly pretty flimsy and the specs are somewhat inferior to the Samsung, despite their being the same size (e.g. 16.2 million colours vs. 16.7 for Samsung, which also has lower pixel pitch). Samsung has a better policy on dead pixels, too. You get what you pay for, so most likely the Samsung.

So that's it. I'm hoping to score some deals come boxing day,but is it better to buy now? Thanks in advance for the help!

[Yun Dog]

U sure u dont want to wait for the dx10 enable cards - I mean if your upgrading may as well get a rig thats good for a coupla years

Geforce 8800GTS or the soon to appear Ati R600 - both will cost a penny but - I have a similar thread down the page

[Lemur]

Wow, that's a lot of detail. I have a P180 case, and I have to say it's fantastic. Quiet, quiet, quiet. You won't be sad for getting it.

I also have the Core2Duo 6600, which I agree is the sweet spot on the performance/price curve.

Of the video cards you named, I expect the 1950 pro would give you the most pleasure, but I second Yunus's question -- can you wait for DX10 cards? Some are here already, and more will come soon. They're supposed to be monsters, even on DX9 titles.

I find the power supply to be a real problem in terms of noise; most of them have 80mm fans which kick up to an annoying whine when temperatures rise. I agree that something in the 500-750 watt should be fine for a while. Just look and see if you can find one with a 120mm fan -- big fans turning slowly are the lemur's answer to loud PCs. The Thermaltake Toughpower line is worth looking at; I have one and it's silent thanks to the big 140mm fan. Here's a review of the 750w model, and here's the full line-up.

Asus makes a nice mobo, and the 965 chipset has the smell of minty freshness. Can't go wrong there.

If you're going to live with a single drive, it's worth considering whether or not to go with something a little bigger than 320 megs. Depends on your media habits, really. Nothing chews up HD space like video -- for instance, my brother is in the process of compressing every DVD he owns to Divx, and he needs lots of room to make his life easy. With hard drives, bigger tends to be better. Western Digital makes a line of server-class hard drives which have very high tolerances, worth considering, especially if you're naughty about not making backups. Users at NewEgg think they're great.

You shouldn't sweat the RAM -- Core2Duo CPUs are a lot less latency-dependent than we're used to with the AMD64s, so getting 2 gigs of RAM at the right speed should do. No need to pay for fancy-boy city RAM.

DVD drives are all pretty similar, but some people have a fetish for Plextor. I've never put one into a rig, so I can't say why, exactly.

Samsung makes a killer LCD, very good choice there, but you should also look at what Dell's got available. I know two gamers who bought Dell widescreens and they're very, very happy.

I probably missed one of your categories, so feel free to bash us all about the head and shoulders with more questions.

[Beirut]

Hey Toronto,

Is there still that half Jewish, half Chinese restaurant downtown called Ginsburg and Wong. What a place. Must be twenty years ago at least since I ate there.

Looks like you're going to have a great setup.

Can't go wrong with an Asus MB. Should get an SLI model if you can.

Like Lemur said, don't sweat the RAM. I have 2Gigs of Kingston and all is fine. I did notice the difference between 1 and 2 gigs. Get good RAM, but you don't really need to get the super expensive stuff.

I stand by my Viewsonic 19" VX922. Looks great, very fast refresh rate, no ghosting even when my flightsims get fast and furious, and it isn't that expensive these days. Maybe $300. Though several people here are saying the new Samsung LCDs are very nice too.

I've used both Powercolor and BFG video cards and both worked very well. BFG, far as I've seen, always gets good reviews. if you can afford an Nvidia 8800, go for it. The thing screams in DX9. As for DX10, well, that's a tooth fairy that has yet to leave a quarter under the pillow. And you'll need a new pillow to see that quarter too, a la MS Vista.

I'm split between the 7950 and 1950. Honestly, it's personal preference. In either case you're getting a great card. I think the top of the line X1950XTX is very fast, very expensive, and very loud.

[LeftEyeNine]

Hey there,

I did not hear much positive stuff about Asus PB5 models, Gigabyte has DS3 models that are highly regarded around.

[Beirut]

It was the ASUS SLI AN8 series I was speaking of. Those are the ones I read the reviews of.

[Taohn]

Thanks for the advice!

Of the video cards you named, I expect the 1950 pro would give you the most pleasure, but I second Yunus's question -- can you wait for DX10 cards? Some are here already, and more will come soon. They're supposed to be monsters, even on DX9 titles.

I could wait (maybe a MB with integrated graphics would be okay until then? see below)

I find the power supply to be a real problem in terms of noise; most of them have 80mm fans which kick up to an annoying whine when temperatures rise. I agree that something in the 500-750 watt should be fine for a while. Just look and see if you can find one with a 120mm fan -- big fans turning slowly are the lemur's answer to loud PCs. The Thermaltake Toughpower line is worth looking at; I have one and it's silent thanks to the big 140mm fan.

Both models I listed have 120mm fans; is it much quieter with 140? You've kind of sold me on the idea. I found some good deals here Especially the 750 watt at $164 after rebate, considering the other places I looked were offereing it for ~$230 (no rebate).

You shouldn't sweat the RAM -- Core2Duo CPUs are a lot less latency-dependent than we're used to with the AMD64s, so getting 2 gigs of RAM at the right speed should do. No need to pay for fancy-boy city RAM.

So I should pounce on the $199 RAM? It's $60 dollars off right now ($30 mail in ends in a couple days).

Samsung makes a killer LCD, very good choice there, but you should also look at what Dell's got available. I know two gamers who bought Dell widescreens and they're very, very happy.

I had a look at the 20 inch dell for $329. Very tempting...lower response time, higher contrast ration, height adjustment, same warranty and dead pixel policy.

On Beirut's suggestion I also looked at this Viewsonic, but while it's the cheapest of the lot, it says "8ms gray-to-gray (avg.); 16ms white-black-white." The Dell and Samsung didn't have their response times broken down like this. What exactly does that mean?

I did not hear much positive stuff about Asus PB5 models, Gigabyte has DS3 models that are highly regarded around.

I loked at some Gigabyte offerings, but the one's in my price range have ICH8 chipset, as opposed to ICH8R (which the Asus boards do have). Does this make a difference? The GA-965G-DS3 also has integrated Graphics, which could tide me over until more Dx10 cards become available. Is that an okay solution? I also read that there's going to be a second wave of 965 boards coming out soon. Should I wait for that?

Thanks again for your help. (Beirut, I'm afraid Ginsberg and Wong's is long gone)

[Beirut]

On Beirut's suggestion I also looked at this Viewsonic, but while it's the cheapest of the lot, it says "8ms gray-to-gray (avg.); 16ms white-black-white." The Dell and Samsung didn't have their response times broken down like this. What exactly does that mean?

There doesn't seem to be an industry standard for what ms really means. Some say white to black to white, some other are just white to black. Or something else. So you have to read between the lines.

My Viewsonic (19", 1280x1024 native res) says it has a 2ms refresh rate. All I know is I've never seen any ghosting or tearing in any game. As I mentioned, I play with a lot of flightsims and there's a lot of fast action going on, but the screen is crisp and clear. Games like FEAR and the Totalwar series look great. I'm very happy with it.

Thanks again for your help. (Beirut, I'm afraid Ginsberg and Wong's is long gone)

Too bad. Good food. One of the very few restaurants that served food spicy enough to blow me out of my chair.

[Lemur]

Both models I listed have 120mm fans; is it much quieter with 140? You've kind of sold me on the idea. I found some good deals here Especially the 750 watt at $164 after rebate, considering the other places I looked were offereing it for ~$230 (no rebate).

If you can get the Thermaltake at a low price, it's not a bad way to go. I don't expect that there's a big difference between a 120mm fan and a 140mm fan, but Thermaltake is a respectable manufacturer.

So I should pounce on the $199 RAM? It's $60 dollars off right now ($30 mail in ends in a couple days).

Assuming you're not going to lose your savings by paying different shipping fees when you order piecemeal, yes, you should grab discounted RAM by all means. (Lemur found out the hard way that ordering six parts from six different stores kills any savings you might have racked up, since each one charges a healthy fee for shipping. Stupid lemur! Stupid lemur!

I loked at some Gigabyte offerings, but the one's in my price range have ICH8 chipset, as opposed to ICH8R (which the Asus boards do have). Does this make a difference? The GA-965G-DS3 also has integrated Graphics, which could tide me over until more Dx10 cards become available. Is that an okay solution? I also read that there's going to be a second wave of 965 boards coming out soon. Should I wait for that?

There's always going to be a second wave, and a third wave, and a fourth, etc. The question is always can you get good-quality stuff at an acceptable price? I'm not as up on the 965 motherboards as I could be, so I'll leave it to othe Orgahs to argue which make is better. I opted for a 975 board, but that was just me being weird.

When in doubt, the NewEgg reviews can be a decent metric. You can bet your plum sauce that a buggy board will have a lot of users screaming in the reviews.

I don't know about integrated graphics -- it might not be worth your time. I would recommend either going with a nice low-cost DX9 card and planning on a 2007 upgrade, or biting the bullet and getting an 8800, or waiting a month to see if the prices go down. It's possible that none of these alternatives are acceptable to you, however.

[Taohn]

Assuming you're not going to lose your savings by paying different shipping fees when you order piecemeal, yes, you should grab discounted RAM by all means. (Lemur found out the hard way that ordering six parts from six different stores kills any savings you might have racked up, since each one charges a healthy fee for shipping. Stupid lemur! Stupid lemur!

Well, the retailer I'm going to get my stuff from has outlets in town, so no shipping charges and I can go badger them if something goes wrong.

I did a lot of reading today on motherboards. Discouraging...they all seem to have something wrong with them, e.g. bad onboard sound, dead on arrival, died after limited use, picky about RAM, bad layout, and on and on and on...
Even boards like 680i seem to have these problems.

Looks like I have to do some more research, so I guess I will wait a bit.

[Lemur]

I did a lot of reading today on motherboards. Discouraging...they all seem to have something wrong with them, e.g. bad onboard sound, dead on arrival, died after limited use, picky about RAM, bad layout, and on and on and on...

Well, I'm using this board, and it seems to be fine. Admittedly, people ding it for not having enough regular PCI slots, but I only need one for my sound card. And if in some future world I go insane and need to have two graphics cards, I can do so (although that's a pretty unlikely scenario, since I'm a bigger fan of getting one good card).

[Taohn]

Looks like a good board, but I can't find it for retail up here (if only Newegg shipped to Canada). It seems there are always a few bad motherboards in every batch, but if you don't wind up with one of those, they're usually pretty solid. So I'll just keep reading the reviews.

On another note, deciding to wait a bit has made me wonder whether a laptop might be better. I may be working overseas for an extended period of time starting in summer 08, so I need something to take with me. Shipping the desktop and monitor over would be expensive and somewhat risky, I think. On the other hand, I can't get over the price/performance of a desktop. What laptop models I have looked at are somewhat lacking, especially in graphics. If I did buy one, I would wait until just before leaving, since it looks like new processors on a smaller process and mobile Dx10 solutions will be available. I really have no use for a laptop until then. But if I bought a semi-expensive rig now, I would get good use out of it for a while, but then it would sit there unused for a year. Overriding all that, I do need a new computer of some kind within the next month. I'm thinking I should just but the rig anyway. Any suggestions? (in my weaker moments I've already contemplated disassembling the rig, putting the case in checked baggage, and taking the parts in the carry on Only problem is how to convince them I'm not crazy...)

[Lemur]

Overriding all that, I do need a new computer of some kind within the next month. I'm thinking I should just but the rig anyway. Any suggestions? (in my weaker moments I've already contemplated disassembling the rig, putting the case in checked baggage, and taking the parts in the carry on Only problem is how to convince them I'm not crazy...)

If you need a new rig now, there's your answer. Not sure on the details about your overseas work plans, but surely FedEx could manage to get a PC to your destination without damage or theft? Besides which, you can always insure the thing, so that if it gets destroyed or stolen, you can build a new one.

I don't think laptops are a good idea for gamers right now. The kind of video power needed to drive most of those screens' native resolution is hella expensive.

Another thought, a sort of in-between alternative, would be to buy a small form factor PC which you could stuff into your luggage, such as the ones sold by Monarch and Shuttle.

[Taohn]

Another thought, a sort of in-between alternative, would be to buy a small form factor PC which you could stuff into your luggage, such as the ones sold by Monarch and Shuttle.

Those look interesting. Can you upgrade them by yourself? Or do you have to pitch them after 2-3 years like a laptop. They pack a lot of stuff in there, so I'm guessing they run hotter than a tower. I was going to buy the p180 in hopes that it would last a couple system builds. Do you think it'll be good for it?

Oh, and about the PSU, is anything more than 600watts really necessary? I don't think I'll be using SLI or Crossfire. Would you reuse a power supply in a new system?

Thanks for everything thus far!

[Lemur]

Can you upgrade them by yourself?

Absolutely. They even sell the cases, power supplies and motherboards as DIY systems. All of the other parts are standard, which is a big difference between SFF PCs and laptops. As with any case, there's going to be a limit to how much/how long you can upgrade it, but it's not a one-shot deal like a laptop.

I was going to buy the p180 in hopes that it would last a couple system builds. Do you think it'll be good for it?

At least one system rebuild, depending on your level of confidence. SFF systems are packed a lot tighter than a luxo case like the P180, so upgrades are going to be a little more delicate, but that's not the end of the world.

Oh, and about the PSU, is anything more than 600watts really necessary? I don't think I'll be using SLI or Crossfire. Would you reuse a power supply in a new system?

If you aren't venturing into the murky waters of SLI or Crossfire, I'm not sure anything more than 500 watts is really necessary. Depends on how crazy power-hungry the DX10 cards will be. Certainly, the 8800s haven't turned out to be quite the heat/power monsters we all feared a few months ago.

On my old AMD Barton system, I used the same power supply for two rebuilds. It was a nice-quality one from PC Power and Cooling, and it held up like a champ. It's certainly possible to re-use the power supply. There may be individual issues, such as headers and rails, but on the whole I'd say yup, they can be reused.

[edit]

This model, in particular, looks like it would have some legs to it ...

[Taohn]

The more I hear about SSF, the more I like it. Thanks, Lemur. It's definitely something to consider.

[DukeofSerbia]

Hello Taohn.

I will say basically your choices are well. I will comment hardware in order you posted here. Let start.

CPU

Core 2 Duo E6600 is good choice (everything above it doesn’t worth).

Overclocking is easy – you need good processor and excellent memory and motherboard. Every C2D can easily reach 2.9 GHz with box cooler.

Motherboard

Go with ASUS P5B Deluxe. My friend just bought it (Wi-Fi edition, his brother wrong ordered edition with Wi-Fi) and we examine it Friday evening. It has excellent layout and awesome o/c abilities. Only equal good alternative is Gigabyte GA-965P-DQ6.

Warnings!

1. If your system will be build in retailer store then demand that they flash BIOS of your new motherboard.
2. “Dual PCI-Express Graphic Slot” – my friend and I read manual. It is true that this motherboard can CrossFire (I am not sure for SLi), but only one channel is x16 and other is x4 which cripple graphics performances in CrossFire. Good, old dirty marketing – we bombastic advertise that MB can something but we hidden somewhere in manual what is reality.

In Serbia this board when is imported is sold express and ASUS here provide three years warranty (the same for Gigabyte).

Hard disk

I don’t know why but in Serbia Western Digital provide three years warranty?!

There is no better hard disk than WD KS series. My friend bought it and I just ordered 250 GB model from KS series. So, buy Western Digital WD3200KS Caviar 320GB SATAII 7200RPM 16MB Buffer (OEM).

Memory

Because you build beast you need 2 GB (2x1 GB). It is worthless to have powerful processor which will not work in full potential because not enough RAM. And there is a big difference between 1 and 2 GB of RAM. You will see difference if you use several programs simultaneously, many new programs demand more and more memory and what to say about games? I will not mention Vista. If you will use for professional purposes like video editing, 3D modeling, CAD and similar and/or for the newest games you need 2 GB.

Corsair XMS2 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM Unbuffered DDR2 675 (PC2 5400)

Or if your budget allows:

Corsair XMS2 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400)

Both have tremendous o/c capabilities.

Case

Cooler Master Centurion 5 CAC-T05-UW Black Aluminum Bezel, SECC ATX Midi Tower

This is über popular case in newegg.com. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811119068 It cost ~50 usd.

Special perforated screen design provides the superior airflow and maximum cooling performance; easy to clean and maintain
Tool-free assembly/disassembly for quick and maintenance or upgrade

This is the best middle (mainstream) class case. And you will save money for 2 GB memory avoid much expensive Antec P180 which in my opinion don’t worth that money (you basically pay brand).
Somebody will said that Cooler Master Centurion 5 CAC-T05-UW has only One 80 x 80 x 20 mm Front Fan (Intake) and One 120x 120x 25mm Rear Fan (Exhaust) plus side air duct. But it works perfect!

Power Supply

500W is enough. You will not build SLi or CrossFire system. Basically you can’t be wrong with the following manufacturers and models (high class): Antec Neo HE, Corsair HX, Enermax Liberty, OCZ GameXStream, Seasonic S12, Silverstone ZF, Tagan U95, Tagan U25, Tagan U15, Tagan U22.

The tricky is that many PSU are de facto OEM versions of some other manufacturer but because of brand they sell with higher price ;). Example: Antec Neo HE and Corsair HX are Seasonic OEM.

If your budget allows buy Seasonic S12 500W Silent ATX2.0. Alternative (lower price) is Enermax Liberty 500W ELT500AWT ATX2.2 Modular SLI Compliant PSU.

Don’t listen Lemur about 750W PSU. You don’t need mini power plant in your computer.

If budget don’t allow I will find from middle class power supply.

Optical drive

Is there a drive that really stands out or are they all pretty much the same?

By the time, the quality of DVD-recorders is lower and lower as only several companies are real manufacturer and only two provide chips (NEC and LiteON – NEC based DVD-recorders are much better). Plus manufacturers save as much as possible and that’s why they are so cheap! And no, they are not the same.

Buy only and again only Pioneer DVR 111D but demand in retail store to flash it like motherboard. Pioneer (and NEC in the new models as Pioneer use NEC chip) is only which still include technology for better reading optical disks. Basically they are mostly the same in writing but majority is disaster in reading, especially CDs.

Video card

You think well. Don’t listen forum members who said that you buy DX 10 (GeForce 8800)! You will just waste your money:

- DX 10 games will not come in market for at least half year and massive for year or even more (depend from sale of Vista).
- DX 10 will work only with Vista and how many computers will still use XP?
- Only nVidia sell DX 10, so until ATI don’t present it prices of nVidia models will be high and ATI will be better (I can bet from what I read).
- nVidia sell DX 10 cards because of excellent marketing.
- DX 9.0c graphics cards (GeForce 7xxx and Radeon X1xxx) are 100% Vista compatible - even the cheapest 7300 and 1300!

So, we eliminated GeForce 8 series (better invest in 2 GB RAM than in stupid DX 10 card).

Between Radeon X19xx series and GeForce 79xx series better is the first one. ATI can AA+HDR and has better video chip.

Radeon X1950Pro is wise choice and mostly faster than GeForce 7900GS plus what I mentioned.

What manufacturer?
It is public secret that only few companies produce high class of ATI’s cards and others just sticky etiquette (you basically pay brand). And they are (not 100% sure, but…) Sapphire and TuL (Power Color brand). But, I suggest you to buy

HIS Radeon X1950Pro IceQ3 256MB. HIS has slightly higher price but it worth because has excellent cooling. Anyway, Radeon X1950Pro cards are almost noiseless but HIS will be easier for o/c and o/c graphics cards are easy job. But as I said, generic Radeon X1950Pro from Sapphire, Power Color and similar will do job excellent.

Monitor

So, you want wide monitor. You really don’t want to know why wide monitors have such a great price drop…

Samsung SyncMaster 205BW is basically good monitor. Samsung is the largest manufacturer of LCD monitors.

My brother in USA bought this model in August and he is very pleased with it (no ghost effects) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...2E16824254005:

Hanns•G JW-199DPB (Black 19" 5ms Widescreen LCD Monitor 300 cd/m2 700:1 Built in Speakers 0.283mm x 0.238mm Pixel Pitch)

And this is one of the most popular model in newegg (there he ordered and bought). I don’t know for death pixel policy (in newegg is 8). Yes it’s 19” but what is the most important you will not pay brand and has DVI-D connector which is the most important.

To summarize:

Intel Core 2 Duo E6600
ASUS P5B Deluxe
Corsair XMS2 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM Unbuffered DDR2 675 (PC2 5400)
Western Digital WD3200KS Caviar 320GB SATAII 7200RPM 16MB Buffer (OEM)
Pioneer DVR 111D
HIS Radeon X1950Pro IceQ3 256MB
Hanns•G JW-199DPB
Cooler Master Centurion 5 CAC-T05-UW Black Aluminum Bezel, SECC ATX Midi Tower
Enermax Liberty 500W ELT500AWT ATX2.2 Modular SLI Compliant PSU

Plus, for keyboard and mouse I suggest Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000 (keyboard + mouse complete).

And as I wrote don’t forget to demand flash update for motherboard and optical drive and demand latest drivers for hardware components (if your local dealer will build your computer). And don’t forget Windows XP with SP2 with the latest hotfixs.
If you order from various places then you will have to do it yourself. It’s the best that you everything order in one place and demand that they complete whole computer with what I wrote you. Yes, you will probably additional pay but better than you work, especially if you don’t experience with it.

I hope it helped. Ask if something is not clear enough.

[Lemur]

Great write-up. DoS! A couple of questions:

Is there some reason you didn't mention Plextor drives? Has the mighty Plextor dropped in quality while I wasn't looking?

Also, do you have any opinions about SFF computers, seeing as that was where the conversation was heading?

Finally, a clarification:

Don’t listen Lemur about 750W PSU. You don’t need mini power plant in your computer.

I'm not sure anything more than 500 watts is really necessary. Depends on how crazy power-hungry the DX10 cards will be.

[Husar]

I agree with most of what DoS said except two things:

1. It's DDR2 667, not 675.
2. The graphicscard will be the limiting factor in that system, I'd go for the best affordable, so with the top models(7950GX2 or 7900GTX maybe even 8800GTS, just for the speed it gives or ATI 1950XTX, maybe wait for the R600). Or just get a really cheap middle class card and upgrade it next year(that may be what DoS wanted to say).

[DukeofSerbia]

Lemur,

Great write-up. DoS!

Thank you very much (DoS – Denial on Service attack).

Is there some reason you didn't mention Plextor drives? Has the mighty Plextor dropped in quality while I wasn't looking?

Plextor is expansive and yes, they are not any more what they were. Now you can trust me or not.

Also, do you have any opinions about SFF computers, seeing as that was where the conversation was heading?

Yes, I saw that conversation was going into that direction, BUT that was before I posted.
Anyway, I don’t like SFF systems. I will always choose laptop rather than SFF system. Read my answer to Taohn.

Btw, newegg don’t sell and send anything from USA. I think not even to Puerto Rico.

1. It's DDR2 667, not 675.

What did you say? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820145015

2. The graphicscard will be the limiting factor in that system, I'd go for the best affordable, so with the top models(7950GX2 or 7900GTX maybe even 8800GTS, just for the speed it gives or ATI 1950XTX, maybe wait for the R600). Or just get a really cheap middle class card and upgrade it next year(that may be what DoS wanted to say).

Graphics card will be not limiting factor.

[DukeofSerbia]

Those look interesting. Can you upgrade them by yourself? Or do you have to pitch them after 2-3 years like a laptop. They pack a lot of stuff in there, so I'm guessing they run hotter than a tower. I was going to buy the p180 in hopes that it would last a couple system builds. Do you think it'll be good for it?

It is not true that laptops are not upgradeable. There are barebone laptop systems in market. The most popular laptop barebone systems are from ASUS. Only one thing is problematic in barebone laptop (like in every other laptop) – graphics card! You can’t change it because graphics card is solder in motherboard. So, in barebone laptop you choose:
processor
RAM
hard disk
optical drive

Those parts can be changed always. Plus you choose monitor and graphics card which you both can’t change.
My brother in USA has barebone laptop and he went in local store where they built for him laptop. They are cheaper than branded models like Dell, Lenovo, HP, Toshiba and etc but they are mostly equal good.

There are models which can be changed graphics but they are very rare in market: http://www.irisvista.com/tech/laptop...a_remove_2.htm

Models with integrated Mobility Radeon X1600 and GeForce Go 7600 are good enough.

Only good SFF systems are from Shuttle. I highly recommended that you avoid them (I mean generally on SFF barebone systems).

If you want to see how laptop barebone systems look go here: http://www.ibuypower.com/ They are best from what I know, but I don’t know do they sell in Canada.

Anyway, buy standard desktop system.

[Lemur]

Only one thing is problematic in barebone laptop (like in every other laptop) – graphics card! You can’t change it because graphics card is solder in motherboard.

And what's the one part most gamers are guaranteed to change during the 4-5 year lifespan of their PC?

[Husar]

What did you say? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820145015

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820150048
That's what I said, I don't know how or why a Corsair memory stick with sucha weird frequency runs, but the standard frequency is 667MHz. Corsair is quite expensive anyway.

Graphics card will be not limiting factor.

Well, my E6600 is pretty bored usually because my 7950Gt cannot keep up, you suggest an even slower card and want to tell me it's not the limiting factor?
I have about 70% CPU usage in Medieval 2 and get around 20fps, is the CPU the limiting factor?

[Taohn]

you guys have me jumping all over the place here! From desktop to laptop to SSF, back to desktop...I have made some progress, I think: laptop is definitely out.

Thanks for the write-up DoS. I like the look of that Cooler Master. I might be chickening out on SSF, but we'll see. I can afford to wait a while, so any idea when the RD600 is going to be launched (early next year, like january)? I found a factory overclocked BFG 7950 at $70 off, but that's still $300+ I could put to Dx10 in the new year.

I only found one on-line retailer offering the Corsair you suggested (all of it was $300+, some pushing the $500 range). This place is offering some good deals on OCZ. The 2GB 667 Gold at $199 and the 800 at $259 are the best deals to be had anywhere I've looked. OCZ is a reputable manufacturer, no? If I buy from that store I have the added security of being able to go downtown and exchange it any time (this would be the same place that I'd have build the comp if I don't do it myself; they only charge $15, as long as you buy case, MB, and CPU from them, and just happen to have the best prices on those items).

I found 500watt Seasonic for ~$100, but it doesn't explicitly say V2.0. Neither does the GamexStream, which is the same price but give 100 more watts. Thermaltake has some very well priced 2.0 500watt units. Will one of those do? They also have v.2.01, 2.2, etc. What's the difference between them?

[Lemur]

you guys have me jumping all over the place here!

A word of friendly advice: Don't listen too carefully to any of us. Use us for information, sure, but take our opinions for what they are. Opinions.

Please keep us informed as you go through your decision-making process. It's great fun to shop vicariously. And I wouldn't write SFF systems off without at least checking one out. Based on what you said about moving overseas and needing portability, I still believe a SFF system might be appropriate for your needs.