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Thread: MTW Pocket Mod: General

  1. #1

    Default MTW Pocket Mod: General

    Hi all I've been playing around with the gnome editor and want to add a few more valour bonuses to the game. I've already given Milan a crossbowmen bonus because of what is written about the italians under pavise crossbows unit description. Anyone have any good historical suggestions for bonuses in other regions?

    Also I'm looking at allowing some merc units like the alans to be built by other factions not just the BYZ. Anyone like to suggest other units that should be more readily available?

  2. #2

    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    I have Alans as trainable in Georgia and Khazar by the Byzantines the Horde and Russians/Novgorod. It may be an idea to allow all of the eastern European Christian and Pagan factions to train them. I haven't given them a valour bonus there however. I don't use inns/mercenaries in my games (removed) so this is the only way for me to get Alan Mercs. I've also thought of putting the Inn building to other uses.

    The lands most lacking valour bonuses are, again, Eastern Europe. It may be an idea to put a valour bonus for vanilla horse archers and/or steppe cavalry in one of the eastern steppe provinces, such as volga bulgaria. Also it may be an idea to add bonuses for the Mongol units in their emergence provinces to give them a bit more edge when they arrive. The Mongols should sweep across Asia and eastern europe making a big mess, in MTW they penetrate the Turkish provinces and slug it out with the Russians before losing momentum and petering out.

    In the west it may be a good idea to put a valour bonus for Feudal Knights somewhere in Europe. You'd have to do the research as to where, but possibly in Ille de France to replace the one for Chivalric Foot Knights.

    I would also ditch the valour bonuses for all ships (portugal, wessex, Venice, Tunisia, Aragon, Denmark etc) as they're not really much cop and the AI can't exploit them. Another one is the Inquisitor and Grand Inquisitor valour bonuses in Castille. That's a particularly nasty one, as GI's are dangerous enough as it is. It also berates Castille which was not only famous for lunatic witch burners. It would do better with a valour bonus for a Spanish specific unit such as Lancers, Javelinmen or Jinetes.

    Another one that I would remove is the Syrian valour bonuses for assassins and Nizaris and replace it with a more realistic one for e.g. Desert Archers, Horse Archers or Futuwwas. I am working on a mod to make the Taverns and Inns in MTW easier to upgrade, to give decent agents to all factions.

    Another good one is Bedouin Camels and/or Arab Infantry for Arabia.

  3. #3
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    Good suggestion on the Mongol valor bonuses. Give all the mounted units hidden bonuses in Kazar (or lesser if an XL style map) and have one territory give a Step Cavalry bonus.


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  4. #4
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    Some great ideas there, Third spearmen.

    As one who plays the Spanish (Castille-Leon in XL) a lot, I won't disagree that Castille-trained Inquisitors are perhaps a bit overpowered. I wouldn't mind if Castille gave a bonus to Jinnettes instead, although Lancers would perhaps be more appropriate.

    I personally would keep the ship bonuses in, if only because it helps lessen the odds that the AI's lone barque manages to somehow sink my 3 galleys (). If you are intent on removing the ship bonuses, however, then I'd recommend Venice's Galley bonus be replaced with a bonus for Italian Infantry.

    Another would be to replace Wessex's Caravel (or was it Cog?) bonus with a bonus for Feudal Knights--the English were somewhat known for their cavalry-heavy armies until the Scots showed them the error of their ways at Bannockburn.

    Denmark's Longship bonus could possibly be replaced with a bonus for Viking Carls, but I'm not sure how historically accurate that would be. (And giving the bonus to Huscarles doesn't bear considering; that would just be scary/ridiculous!)

    Tunisia's ship bonus could be replaced with a bonus for Muwahid Infantry, although I'm not sure these guys need the help! Still, it could provide the Almos with another strong unit that can help them out in the later stages of a campaign.

    I would also recommend Arabia give a bonus to Bedouin Camel Warriors. Not only was it home to the two largest Bedouin tribes (Aniza & Shammar), but it would also be nice if Arabia actually possessed some sort of strategic value for once.
    Last edited by Martok; 09-19-2006 at 19:14.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    Martok, Vladimir and Caravel

    thanks for the great feedback so far guys

    I had not thought of getting rid of the ship bonuses but that sounds like a great idea. The idea of trying to get a good bit of historical fact behind these valour upgrades really appeals. The Arabia/Bedouin Camel Warriors valor bonus is one I'm going to go with for sure.

    Do any of you guys want to suggest any units that should be more readily available to build by more than one faction?

  6. #6
    The Pale Horseman Member Galagros's Avatar
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    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    Are you doing this for vanilla or a mod? (so I can get the right units into my head and think)
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  7. #7

    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    I presume he's doing it for Vanilla, though not sure.

    With regard to Arabia and Bedoiuns, it's the best idea, but I'd throw those poor devils the Arab Infantry in as well. They need all the help they can get. I did it once, and it gave me both the incentive to develop Arabia and reason to train the arabs in the first place. I remember a certain campaign where I used them as mass flankers against the mongols and they gained valour quite quickly.

    As to units that should be more readily available, I'd say Futuwwa. The Egyptians should definitely be able to train these as well.

    Also, and dare I mention this, it may be an idea to give the Byzantine at least access to Armoured Spearmen.

    For the Almohads, Turks and Egyptians I'd take away the Militia Sergeants/Urban Militia. They seem to be a muslim reworking of the Catholic units, that is not at all accurate. Also I feel that with Ghazis and AUMs available there's not a desperate need for them.

    Also another one I've wondered about is Armenian Heavy Cavalry. They're only available to Muslims yet they are inherently a christian cavalry type. Oddly enough the unit dismounts to feudal sergeants giving indication that CA may have considered making them available to all factions occupying those provinces, regardless of religion or culture type. They may have made them exclusively muslim in order to fill the gap for an exclusively muslim medium cavalry, though I don't see it as the muslim factions can train Ghulam Cavalry which are almost the same (though AHC cost less to support and have a better charge).

    The only other unit changes I can think of are more restrictions.

  8. #8
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    With regard to Arabia and Bedoiuns, it's the best idea, but I'd throw those poor devils the Arab Infantry in as well. They need all the help they can get. I did it once, and it gave me both the incentive to develop Arabia and reason to train the arabs in the first place. I remember a certain campaign where I used them as mass flankers against the mongols and they gained valour quite quickly.
    Good point, Caravel; I meant to mention that in my earlier post but forgot to. I rarely bothered with Arab Infantry in vanilla MTW/VI, as Gazis were always superior in terms of "bang for your buck". VikingHorde's XL Mod gives AI the ability to throw armour-piercing javelins, which helps; but even then they still seem a bit underpowered at times. A valour bonus in Arabia could actually make it worthwhile to train them again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    Also, and dare I mention this, it may be an idea to give the Byzantine at least access to Armoured Spearmen.
    Ooh, that's a good one! (The XL Mod gives the Byz the ability to train Latin Auxilaries, which definitely helps out with their lack of a strong anti-cav unit.) I would even go so far as not only give the Byz access to AS, but give them a training bonus as well (in Anatolia, perhaps?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    For the Almohads, Turks and Egyptians I'd take away the Militia Sergeants/Urban Militia. They seem to be a muslim reworking of the Catholic units, that is not at all accurate. Also I feel that with Ghazis and AUMs available there's not a desperate need for them.
    I agree with removing UM; not so sure about removing Militia Sergeants, though. Having a cheap anti-armour/cav unit can be useful for dealing with Crusades coming through your lands, particularly if you can't recruit significant numbers of Muwahid/Saracen Infantry yet.

    I would also make Jinnettes available to all factions (so long as that faction owns one of the Iberian provinces in which they can be trained). Given that they were partially inspired by Moorish soldiers and tactics, I don't see why Jinnettes couldn't be trained by Muslim factions as well.
    Last edited by Martok; 09-20-2006 at 00:36.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    Good point, Caravel; I meant to mention that in my earlier post but forgot to. I rarely bothered with Arab Infantry in vanilla MTW/VI, as Gazis were always superior in terms of "bang for your buck". VikingHorde's XL Mod gives AI the ability to throw armour-piercing javelins, which helps; but even then they still seem a bit underpowered at times. A valour bonus in Arabia could actually make it worthwhile to train them again.
    Giving the Arabs javelins wouldn't be hard at all though I'm unsure of the historical accuracy of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    Ooh, that's a good one! I would even go so far as not only give the Byz access to AS, but give them a training bonus as well (in Anatolia, perhaps?).
    Anatolia would be a good one, though perhaps Greece would be better? It lacks any kind of valour bonus at present, it's a large area and is really not a province but a generic region.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    I agree with removing UM; not so sure about removing Militia Sergeants, though. Having a cheap anti-armour/cav unit can be useful for dealing with Crusades coming through your lands, particularly if you can't recruit significant numbers of Muwahid/Saracen Infantry yet.
    I'm (re)thinking that militias should be there. In my case anyway. I was looking into "homelands" last night, which I have been considering implimenting for a while. It seems stupid to be able to train certain units belonging to specific ethnic groups at an extreme distance from their origins. In this case the militias would be handy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    I would also make Jinnettes available to all factions (so long as that faction owns one of the Iberian provinces in which they can be trained). Given that they were partially inspired by Moorish soldiers and tactics, I don't see why Jinnettes couldn't be trained by Muslim factions as well.
    Good idea! I'm thinking province specific is better than faction specific in many cases. Throughout history we see where an invaded people's fighting men are absorbed into or adopted by the conquerors armies. It is more realistic for the Almohads to train Jinetes in any part of Iberia, than for say, the English to be training Longbows in Volga Bulgaria.
    Last edited by caravel; 09-20-2006 at 09:09.

  10. #10
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    I strongly suggest leaving the galley bonus intact for Venice. They were renowned throughout the world for the assembly line type shipyard they had and were able to build a huge amount of ships. Ship bonuses for England, Aragon, Denmark, and maybe Big C. would be also be historically appropriate and would give a more realistic feel to the game. All though it's all up to user choice of course.

    Now, back to reading the rest of the thread...


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  11. #11
    Senior Member Senior Member naut's Avatar
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    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    If Palastine doesn't have one, then maybe Ghazi bonus there.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    I agree with what you're saying, but the point is that the naval system is already a bit of a lottery anyway. Giving the italians super valoured galleys is asking for trouble. Luckily the Sicillians don't have such a bonus in any of their home provinces!

    England has the Cogs bonus in Wessex as is. Aragon has the Wargalleys(?) bonus, not alot of use to Aragon themselves. Denmark has the Longboat one, Constantinople has no ship bonus and I'm not sure if it should.

    The way I see it, these bonuses can seriously imbalance a campaign. I've lost many fleets in the past to these valoured up ships, especially as regards venice. The Portugal one for Caravels isn't a problem because the place is so unstable and rebellious that the AI never manages to tech up to build a dockyard anyway.

    Also if I as the Spanish can take Portugal, and tech it up to build high valour Caravels, then put together many three ship fleets with a Portuguese Caravel as their Admiral's ship at the head, the AI doesn't stand much of a chance.

    To reflect the ease of production in Venice the italians should simply be able to produce the Galley type ships more cheaply, which I think they can anyway IIRC.

    In reality the AI shipping needs all the help it can get. Yes there are those occasions where your fleets go down one after another, though it's rare if you manage them correctly (attacking first with like ships grouped together in groups of no more than 2 or 3!). The AI sends it's fleets to the stupidest of places, i.e. the Danes often send a loan longboat to the Black Sea instead of putting it to use guarding their coast or forming the beginnings of a trade route. Imbalancing this even further with provinces pumping out high valour ships will only make matters worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rythmic
    If Palastine doesn't have one, then maybe Ghazi bonus there.
    Palestine has one for Knights Templar, but it can have Ghazis also. Though Ghazis are very generic in the game, and historically there were many Ghazis of different origins.

    Basically we can mod many (not sure of the limit) units to have a valour bonus in the one province, but we can't give the same unit valour bonuses in multiple provinces AFAIK. I haven't tried putting i.e. "ID_LIBYA, ID_AFRICA" in the field for the province valour bonus for Saharan Cavalry. For all units it contains only one province (i.e. ID_LIBYA), so I somehow don't think this will work.

    -Edit: I'm wrong there, I was thinking or the "ruler advantage" column. There are multiples (such as algeria and morocco for berbers, but they don't apear to work (confirmationm needed)).
    Last edited by caravel; 09-23-2006 at 22:53.

  13. #13
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    England has the Cogs bonus in Wessex as is. Aragon has the Wargalleys(?) bonus, not alot of use to Aragon themselves. Denmark has the Longboat one, Constantinople has no ship bonus and I'm not sure if it should.
    I was thinking about their fire galleys.


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  14. #14

    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    Is that the Valour bonus for Aragon, Fire Galleys? And it's standard Galleys for Venice right?

  15. #15

    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    Two points I'd like to throw on the table

    1. I am playing XL mod 2.1

    2. I've started using the gnome editor because of my boredom with the AI and it's silly tactics. Ships are a pet hate of mine mainly down to the AI's inability to make chains and trade. My idea is to take away the valour bonus for ships and replace each with a more useful faction bonus. but to balance I've made all things sea based cheaper and quicker to build.

    Port 1 year, cost 200
    Shipyard 2 years, cost 400 etc

    low level ships cost 200 and take one year to build
    next level 300 and 2 years build etc

    I'm hoping that cheaper ships and buildings will mean more ships on the seas, more hope of chains and easy replacements when fleets are lost.

  16. #16
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    Giving the Arabs javelins wouldn't be hard at all though I'm unsure of the historical accuracy of this.
    Nor am I. I think VikingHorde gave them javelins (actually I believe they were throwing spears, now that I think of it) mostly so that you had a reason to recruit them, as opposed to any historical precedent. Once you're able to recruit Ghazis & Muwahids, Arab Infantry become pretty redundant--unless they're given a valour bonus, and/or another ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    Anatolia would be a good one, though perhaps Greece would be better? It lacks any kind of valour bonus at present, it's a large area and is really not a province but a generic region.
    Good idea, Caravel. Also, since Greece was once famous for its hoplites, bestowing it with a bonus for armoured spearmen would be sort of a nice symmetry as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    I'm (re)thinking that militias should be there. In my case anyway. I was looking into "homelands" last night, which I have been considering implimenting for a while. It seems stupid to be able to train certain units belonging to specific ethnic groups at an extreme distance from their origins. In this case the militias would be handy.
    True enough. If you're going to have homelands, then militia units could have a bigger role in your armies abroad. (This is not a criticism in any way, but I do confess to sometimes wishing VH's XL Mod had Homelands like Wes' MedMod, as I think this would help with the "steamroller" effect later in the game. But that would just be icing on the cake for me. )

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    Good idea! I'm thinking province specific is better than faction specific in many cases. Throughout history we see where an invaded people's fighting men are absorbed into or adopted by the conquerors armies. It is more realistic for the Almohads to train Jinetes in any part of Iberia, than for say, the English to be training Longbows in Volga Bulgaria.
    Agreed. Some units should be limited more by region than by who can recruit them. I don't think we should see the Polish being able to train Longbows, however, or the Sicilians training Huscarles. There does still have to be some limits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    To reflect the ease of production in Venice the italians should simply be able to produce the Galley type ships more cheaply, which I think they can anyway IIRC.
    I second that as well. I'm more in favor of the Italians/Venetians being able to produce Galleys cheaply, as opposed to being able to produce them with a +1 bonus. Sort of like how the Uesugi clan could train cheaper Archers in Shogun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    Is that the Valour bonus for Aragon, Fire Galleys? And it's standard Galleys for Venice right?
    I believe that's correct, yes.
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  17. #17
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Third spearman from the left
    Two points I'd like to throw on the table

    1. I am playing XL mod 2.1

    2. I've started using the gnome editor because of my boredom with the AI and it's silly tactics. Ships are a pet hate of mine mainly down to the AI's inability to make chains and trade. My idea is to take away the valour bonus for ships and replace each with a more useful faction bonus. but to balance I've made all things sea based cheaper and quicker to build.

    Port 1 year, cost 200
    Shipyard 2 years, cost 400 etc

    low level ships cost 200 and take one year to build
    next level 300 and 2 years build etc

    I'm hoping that cheaper ships and buildings will mean more ships on the seas, more hope of chains and easy replacements when fleets are lost.
    "MTW is not a game, it's a way of life." -- drone

  18. #18

    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    I think VikingHorde gave them javelins (actually I believe they were throwing spears, now that I think of it) mostly so that you had a reason to recruit them, as opposed to any historical precedent. Once you're able to recruit Ghazis & Muwahids, Arab Infantry become pretty redundant--unless they're given a valour bonus, and/or another ability.
    For some reason Arabs and javelins doesn't seem to go together, though I could be wrong. The majority of Arab fighters were mounted, and armed with swords and bows of some sort. This is why I'd resist turning them into javelinmen. I'd give them bows before I'd give them javelins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    Good idea, Caravel. Also, since Greece was once famous for its hoplites, bestowing it with a bonus for armoured spearmen would be sort of a nice symmetry as well.
    The Byzantine should have access to such a basic unit. I'm not so sure about giving the valour advantage for the Armoured Spearmen though but if they are able to train the normal round shield ones, then they should also be able to train the armoured ones, or neither. It's simply a generic unit and should be available to any catholic or orthodox unit that can't train Feudal Sergeants as a replacement (as the roundshield spears are used in place of the regular spears for some factions).

    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    If you're going to have homelands, then militia units could have a bigger role in your armies abroad. (This is not a criticism in any way, but I do confess to sometimes wishing VH's XL Mod had Homelands like Wes' MedMod, as I think this would help with the "steamroller" effect later in the game. But that would just be icing on the cake for me. )
    I've been working on and off modding for over a year, and have messed around with units sizes, and stats continuously as well as Sahara and landbridges. As things stand I believe that the stats are balanced enough. It has been my goal to create a sort of non personalised mod that doesn't drastically alter the game, nor add new provinces, new units or any new graphics. In essence the changes would only be scripted. a sort of a semi-realism / gameplay patch/fix that doesn't try to fix what isn't broken.

    The main issue as I see it is homelands and provincial valour bonuses as well as the 'which factions should train what' issue. There are quite a few muslim units in particular that should be more restricted. Muwahid Foot Soldiers being a good example. They should be restricted to their Almohad homelands, and the Almohad Faction. Murabitin = Almoravid. Muwahid = Almohad. Homelands, for me is absolutely essential and can only mak the game vastly better, but it needs to be implimented well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    Agreed. Some units should be limited more by region than by who can recruit them. I don't think we should see the Polish being able to train Longbows, however, or the Sicilians training Huscarles. There does still have to be some limits.
    That's why I said 'many'. There has to be some limitations. In essence both systems have to be in effect. There will be areas where they overlap and areas where they cancel each other out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    I second that as well. I'm more in favor of the Italians/Venetians being able to produce Galleys cheaply, as opposed to being able to produce them with a +1 bonus. Sort of like how the Uesugi clan could train cheaper Archers in Shogun.
    The Italians can produce all of their ships cheaply as it stands (Vanilla) with the exception of Dromons. It would be simple to mod those in.

    I've also messed up my most recent crusader_unit_prod11.txt so will be redoing that. It crashes and I can't be bothered to search for the error (not a column row reference crash but a real crash). Instead I will create more regular backups and catalogue all of my changes in future!
    Last edited by caravel; 09-20-2006 at 23:17.

  19. #19
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    For some reason Arabs and javelins doesn't seem to go together, though I could be wrong. The majority of Arab fighters were mounted, and armed with swords and bows of some sort. This is why I'd resist turning them into javelinmen. I'd give them bows before I'd give them javelins.
    Yeah, that'd make more sense. It would be a good way to give the Eggies a hybrid infantry unit, sort of like Jannissaries (except not as uber).

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    The Byzantine should have access to such a basic unit. I'm not so sure about giving the valour advantage for the Armoured Spearmen though but if they are able to train the normal round shield ones, then they should also be able to train the armoured ones, or neither. It's simply a generic unit and should be available to any catholic or orthodox unit that can't train Feudal Sergeants as a replacement (as the roundshield spears are used in place of the regular spears for some factions).
    Agreed. I still think the Byz should have a province that gives Armoured Spearmen a bonus, however. Unless you were going to allow them to train another heavier spear/pike type unit later on, the Byz could use all the help they can get in that department.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    The main issue as I see it is homelands and provincial valour bonuses as well as the 'which factions should train what' issue. There are quite a few muslim units in particular that should be more restricted. Muwahid Foot Soldiers being a good example. They should be restricted to their Almohad homelands, and the Almohad Faction. Murabitin = Almoravid. Muwahid = Almohad. Homelands, for me is absolutely essential and can only mak the game vastly better, but it needs to be implimented well.
    I mostly agree, but Muwahid=Almohad only? I don't know about that one. I personally would make them available to all Muslim factions, but that they must own one of the north African provinces (Egypt, Tunisia, etc.). Of course, I'm hopelessly incompetent when it comes to modding such things myself, so you and Third spearmen do what you like.


    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    That's why I said 'many'. There has to be some limitations. In essence both systems have to be in effect. There will be areas where they overlap and areas where they cancel each other out.
    (Have we just spent the last several posts essentially agreeing with each other on this point, without actually realizing/acknowledging it? )

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    I've also messed up my most recent crusader_unit_prod11.txt so will be redoing that. It crashes and I can't be bothered to search for the error (not a column row reference crash but a real crash). Instead I will create more regular backups and catalogue all of my changes in future!
    What exactly are you hoping to accomplish with editing the Crusader unit files? Are you attempting to just rebalance their stats, or something a little more extensive?
    Last edited by Martok; 09-20-2006 at 23:54.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    I mostly agree, but Muwahid=Almohad only? I don't know about that one. I personally would make them available to all Muslim factions, but that they must own one of the north African provinces (Egypt, Tunisia, etc.). Of course, I'm hopelessly incompetent when it comes to modding such things myself, so you and Third spearmen do what you like.
    Historically Muwahids were Almohads and Murabitins were Almoravids. So it makes sense that Muwahids should be restricted to Almohad only, and/or only available in Almohad provinces as this is where they come from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    (Have we just spent the last several posts essentially agreeing with each other on this point, without actually realizing/acknowledging it? )
    Probably, I seem to have a knack for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    What exactly are you hoping to accomplish with editing the Crusader unit files? Are you attempting to just rebalance their stats, or something a little more extensive?
    That file is not just stats, it controls which faction can build which unit, when, where and which valour bonuses from which provinces.

  21. #21
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    Historically Muwahids were Almohads and Murabitins were Almoravids. So it makes sense that Muwahids should be restricted to Almohad only, and/or only available in Almohad provinces as this is where they come from.
    Interesting; I didn't know that. I was under the impression they were more like Nubian Spearmen, where they served with several different Saharan/Arabian nations. Thanks for the mini-history lesson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    That file is not just stats, it controls which faction can build which unit, when, where and which valour bonuses from which provinces.
    Right. I was just curious what you were going to change, that's all.
    "MTW is not a game, it's a way of life." -- drone

  22. #22

    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    The word "Almohad" a corruption of Al-Muwahhidun (the monotheists). "Almoravid" is a corruption of Al-Murabitin (the sentinals). The Nubians would have been slaves, Murabitin and Muwahid infantry would not have been slaves, which is why they would not generally have been found serving in Turkish armies in Anatolia! If you look you can almost see how the westerners, in particular the Castellanos corrupted the words to make them more palatable to weserners. This is common.

    This is why I feel that both should be exclusively Almohad and that Murubitin infantry should only be available in early, with Muwahid Foot Soldiers possibly replacing them in the high and late periods. (There is a lack of any specific Hafsid units).

    In my opinion. they should be renamed as either Almoravid Javelinmen/Almohad Spearmen (or Murabitin Javelinmen/Muwahid Spearmen) and given valour bonuses in either Sahara, Morocco, Algeria or Tunisia. The era restriuctions should also be there.

    -Edit: As to stat editing, I'm of the opinion that the stats are mostly ok as they are. Some of the obsolete units (such as i.e. Ghulam Cavalry, and Arab Infantry) need something to make them worthwhile, but I'm not sure that beefing up the stats will accomplish this without pushing another unit into obsolescence.
    Last edited by caravel; 09-22-2006 at 15:15.

  23. #23
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    The word "Almohad" a corruption of Al-Muwahhidun (the monotheists). "Almoravid" is a corruption of Al-Murabitin (the sentinals). The Nubians would have been slaves, Murabitin and Muwahid infantry would not have been slaves, which is why they would not generally have been found serving in Turkish armies in Anatolia! If you look you can almost see how the westerners, in particular the Castellanos corrupted the words to make them more palatable to weserners. This is common.

    This is why I feel that both should be exclusively Almohad and that Murubitin infantry should only be available in early, with Muwahid Foot Soldiers possibly replacing them in the high and late periods. (There is a lack of any specific Hafsid units).

    In my opinion. they should be renamed as either Almoravid Javelinmen/Almohad Spearmen (or Murabitin Javelinmen/Muwahid Spearmen) and given valour bonuses in either Sahara, Morocco, Algeria or Tunisia. The era restriuctions should also be there.
    GAH! No, you can't take the away the Muwahids from my Egyptians!

    But seriously, yeah that does make sense. I think I've actually heard before that Alhmohad was essentially a "Castillian-ization" of Muwahid (probably elsewhere on this board, no doubt). Didn't know that Murabitin was a curruption as well, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    -Edit: As to stat editing, I'm of the opinion that the stats are mostly ok as they are. Some of the obsolete units (such as i.e. Ghulam Cavalry, and Arab Infantry) need something to make them worthwhile, but I'm not sure that beefing up the stats will accomplish this without pushing another unit into obsolescence.
    Well I personally find Ghulam Cav to be decent enough already (although you're not the only one who thinks otherwise), so I can't really think of any suggestions offhand as to how to improve them. With the Arab Infantry, however, I like your idea of giving them bows and turning them into a hybrid unit. That's probably the best solution I can think of, aside from the throwing spears VH gave them in his XL Mod (but which you feel is historically inaccurate).

    @Third spearman from the left: So have you made any progress on adding/replacing unit bonuses? You've been kind of quiet the last couple days, and I was curious as to what changes you'd made so far.
    "MTW is not a game, it's a way of life." -- drone

  24. #24
    Member Member highlanddave's Avatar
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    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    slightly off topic, but a question has been burning in me to ask you, caravel and martok. i judge the longbowmen in the xl mod to have built up to be too powerful. what are your thoughts?

  25. #25
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    Quote Originally Posted by highlanddave
    slightly off topic, but a question has been burning in me to ask you, caravel and martok. i judge the longbowmen in the xl mod to have built up to be too powerful. what are your thoughts?
    To be honest, I haven't noticed that much of a difference, although I can tell they're a little amped up from their original selves. I don't frequently play as the English, however (in either vanilla MTW/VI or XL), so it's possible I haven't enough experience to form a true impression. That said, they still seem fine to me--but then I always felt they were actually a little underpowered in the vanilla game. I think I have/had perhaps overly-high expectations for longbows, and was therefore slightly disappointed with the initial results. (So in my mind, the XL Mod fixed this to at least a degree.)
    Last edited by Martok; 09-22-2006 at 19:58.
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  26. #26

    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    Well I personally find Ghulam Cav to be decent enough already (although you're not the only one who thinks otherwise), so I can't really think of any suggestions offhand as to how to improve them. With the Arab Infantry, however, I like your idea of giving them bows and turning them into a hybrid unit. That's probably the best solution I can think of, aside from the throwing spears VH gave them in his XL Mod (but which you feel is historically inaccurate).
    Ghulam Cavalry are essentially AHC with a charge bonus of 6 as opposed to the AHC's charge bonus of 8. They cost less to train, but more to support and they take much more teching up. They need some other kind of stat/cost difference to AHC to make them worthwhile training. I would suggest equalising the charge with AHC, making them disciplined, and cranking up their armour 1 point, but also increasing the cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    @Third spearman from the left: So have you made any progress on adding/replacing unit bonuses? You've been kind of quiet the last couple days, and I was curious as to what changes you'd made so far.
    I was wondering the same.

  27. #27
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    Ghulam Cavalry are essentially AHC with a charge bonus of 6 as opposed to the AHC's charge bonus of 8. They cost less to train, but more to support and they take much more teching up. They need some other kind of stat/cost difference to AHC to make them worthwhile training. I would suggest equalising the charge with AHC, making them disciplined, and cranking up their armour 1 point, but also increasing the cost.
    That, or just lower their training cost (and keep their stats the same). I like the idea of making them Disciplined either way, though.
    "MTW is not a game, it's a way of life." -- drone

  28. #28

    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    The problem with lowering their training cost is that, unless they're alot lower, and unless their support cost is lowered as well, there is still nothing to gain whatsoever from recruiting them. Thinking about it, I am reluctant to alter their charge at all. I would prefer if they were better in defense and melee and were disciplined. This is more inline with their high prerequisites (Spearmakers guild horse breeders guild). AHC's only need a horse breeder, and they're simply better cavalry. Why tech up to a cavalry that you've already superceded?
    Last edited by caravel; 09-23-2006 at 17:37.

  29. #29
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    Your last point rings all too true, Caravel (although I can't disagree with the rest of your statement either). While I find GC does well enough in battle, I never have understood why their build requirements were so high. Bumping up their stats does make quite a bit of sense.

    The only concern I have is making sure they're not made identical to Kwarazmian Cavalry--although that's another unit that could definitely use some buffing as well. (They're too expensive, and their build requirements too high, in comparison to their combat abilities.)
    "MTW is not a game, it's a way of life." -- drone

  30. #30

    Default Re: New valour bonus regions

    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    Your last point rings all too true, Caravel (although I can't disagree with the rest of your statement either). While I find GC does well enough in battle, I never have understood why their build requirements were so high. Bumping up their stats does make quite a bit of sense.
    I'm going to try it once I've fixed all of the homelands. I keep hitting a point where the gnome editor corrupts the crusaders file. Even reversing the changes doesn't fix it, so I have to revert to a backup. (Why couldn't CA have made this file easier to edit like the startpos files? )

    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    The only concern I have is making sure they're not made identical to Kwarazmian Cavalry--although that's another unit that could definitely use some buffing as well. (They're too expensive, and their build requirements too high, in comparison to their combat abilities.)
    Khwarazmian Cavarly = Kataphrakoi but alot faster with 2 points less to the charge (Kataphraktoi 8 charge, Khwarazmian 6 charge) and undisciplined. Personally I find them overpriced and take too much teching up, so seldom bother with them. AHC with upgrades and a good general can give anyone a run for their money. The Khwarazmians do need some souping up (and perhaps some slowing down), to give 3 levels of cavalry (Armenian, Ghulam, and Khwarazmian). Historicaly they would have been among the ranks of the Mongols and the Turks, I doubt the Fatimids, Abuyyids or Mamluks would have had anything to do with them.

    And don't get me started on those Sipahis of the Porte!

    Update: Well I've complated the homelands and the valour bonus regions suggested here, with the excaption of jinetes and armoured spearmen (I still haven't decided about those). Jinetes have always seemed a bit fishy to me. They're not exactly Jinetes as such, but some kind of Javelin cavalry. Sadly they're probably fantasy units. I've made Jinetes available to all, though only trainable within Iberia of course. As to the armoured spearmen it seems wrong to have greece only famous for these. If I can think of another Byzantine unit as well I may add them as an extra "hidden" bonus.
    Last edited by caravel; 09-23-2006 at 23:05.

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