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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Question Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    This is an interesting one. Teacher at a public school preaches to the class, describing how dinosaurs were on the ark, how evolution is wrong, and how a particular muslim girl at the school will go to hell. Student tapes the teacher, files some sort of complaint. No lawsuit, thanks goodness.

    Anyway, from the sound of the article, the community is lining up behind the teacher, which leaves the lemur scratching his head. Something isn't quite right. If I'm engaged to teach, say, math, and I come from a religion that believes the value of pi is 4, am I allowed to teach that? If I believe that all novels are illicit wastes of time (this used to be a common position), am I allowed to teach that?

    I have no problem with the teacher saying whatever he likes on his own time, but there's something distinctly odd about allowing him to contradict his curriculum (and commonly accepted scientific reality) while pulling down a state paycheck. Orgah opinions?

    Article below spoiler, since source lapses into pay-only after 24 hours or so.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    December 18, 2006

    Talk in Class Turns to God, Setting Off Public Debate on Rights

    By TINA KELLEY

    KEARNY, N.J. — Before David Paszkiewicz got to teach his accelerated 11th-grade history class about the United States Constitution this fall, he was accused of violating it.

    Shortly after school began in September, the teacher told his sixth-period students at Kearny High School that evolution and the Big Bang were not scientific, that dinosaurs were aboard Noah’s ark, and that only Christians had a place in heaven, according to audio recordings made by a student whose family is now considering a lawsuit claiming Mr. Paszkiewicz broke the church-state boundary.

    “If you reject his gift of salvation, then you know where you belong,” Mr. Paszkiewicz was recorded saying of Jesus. “He did everything in his power to make sure that you could go to heaven, so much so that he took your sins on his own body, suffered your pains for you, and he’s saying, ‘Please, accept me, believe.’ If you reject that, you belong in hell.”

    The student, Matthew LaClair, said that he felt uncomfortable with Mr. Paszkiewicz’s statements in the first week, and taped eight classes starting Sept. 13 out of fear that officials would not believe the teacher had made the comments.

    Since Matthew’s complaint, administrators have said they have taken “corrective action” against Mr. Paszkiewicz, 38, who has taught in the district for 14 years and is also a youth pastor at Kearny Baptist Church. However, they declined to say what the action was, saying it was a personnel matter.

    “I think he’s an excellent teacher,” said the school principal, Al Somma. “As far as I know, there have never been any problems in the past.”

    Staci Snider, the president of the local teacher’s union, said Mr. Paszkiewicz (pronounced pass-KEV-ich) had been assigned a lawyer from the union, the New Jersey Education Association. Two calls to Mr. Paszkiewicz at school and one to his home were not returned.

    In this tale of the teacher who preached in class and the pupil he offended, students and the larger community have mostly lined up with Mr. Paszkiewicz, not with Matthew, who has received a death threat handled by the police, as well as critical comments from classmates.

    Greice Coelho, who took Mr. Paszkiewicz’s class and is a member of his youth group, said in a letter to The Observer, the local weekly newspaper, that Matthew was “ignoring the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which gives every citizen the freedom of religion.” Some anonymous posters on the town’s electronic bulletin board, Kearnyontheweb.com, called for Matthew’s suspension.

    On the sidewalks outside the high school, which has 1,750 students, many agreed with 15-year-old Kyle Durkin, who said, “I’m on the teacher’s side all the way.”

    While science teachers, particularly in the Bible Belt, have been known to refuse to teach evolution, the controversy here, 10 miles west of Manhattan, hinges on assertions Mr. Paszkiewicz made in class, including how a specific Muslim girl would go to hell.

    “This is extremely rare for a teacher to get this blatantly evangelical,” said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, a nonprofit educational association. “He’s really out there proselytizing, trying to convert students to his faith, and I think that that’s more than just saying I have some academic freedom right to talk about the Bible’s view of creation as well as evolution.”

    Even some legal organizations that often champion the expression of religious beliefs are hesitant to support Mr. Paszkiewicz.

    “It’s proselytizing, and the courts have been pretty clear you can’t do that,” said John W. Whitehead, president of the Rutherford Institute, a group that provides legal services in religious freedom cases. “You can’t step across the line and proselytize, and that’s what he’s done here.”

    The class started on Sept. 11, and Matthew quickly grew concerned. “The first couple of days I had him, he had already begun discussing his religious point of view,” Matthew, a thin, articulate 16-year-old with braces and a passion for politics and the theater, recalled in an interview. “It wasn’t even just his point of view, it went beyond that to say this is the right way, this is the only way. The way he said it, I wasn’t sure how far he was going to go.”

    On the second day of taping, after the discussion veered from Moses’s education to free will, Matthew asked why a loving God would consign humans to hell, according to the recording.

    Some of Matthew’s detractors say he set up his teacher by baiting him with religious questions. But Matthew, who was raised in the Ethical Culture Society, a humanist religious and educational group, said all of his comments were in response to something the teacher said.

    “I didn’t start any of the topics that were discussed,” he said.

    In a Sept. 25 letter to the principal, Matthew wrote: “I care about the future generation and I do not want Mr. Paszkiewicz to continue preaching to and poisoning students.” He met with school officials and handed over the recordings.

    Matthew’s family wrote four letters to the district asking for an apology and for the teacher to correct any false statements he had made in class, particularly those related to science. Matthew’s father, Paul LaClair, a lawyer, said he was now considering legal action against the district, claiming that Mr. Paszkiewicz’s teachings violated their son’s First Amendment and civil rights, and that his words misled the class and went against the curriculum.

    Kenneth J. Lindenfelser, the lawyer for the Kearny school board, said he could not discuss Mr. Paszkiewicz specifically, but that when a complaint comes in about a teacher, it is investigated, and then the department leader works with the teacher to correct any inappropriate behavior.

    The teacher is monitored, and his or her evaluation could be noted, Mr. Lindenfelser said, adding that if these steps did not work, the teacher could be reprimanded, suspended or, eventually, fired.

    As for the request that Mr. Paszkiewicz correct his statements that conflict with the district’s science curriculum, “Sometimes, the more you dwell on the issue, the more you continue the issue,” Mr. Lindenfelser said. “Sometimes, it’s better to stop any inappropriate behavior and move on.”

    The district’s actions have succeeded, he said, as the family has not reported any continued violations.

    Bloggers around the world have called Matthew courageous. In contrast, the LaClairs said they had been surprised by the vehemence of the opposition that local residents had expressed against Matthew.

    Frank Viscuso, a Kearny resident, wrote in a letter to The Observer that “when a student is advised by his ‘attorney’ father to bait a teacher with questions about religion, and then records his answers and takes the story to 300 newspapers, that family isn’t ‘offended’ by what was said in the classroom — they’re simply looking for a payout and to make a name for themselves.” He called the teacher one of the town’s best.

    However, Andrew Lewczuk, a former student of Mr. Paszkiewicz, praised his abilities as a history teacher but said he regretted that he had not protested the religious discussions. “In the end, the manner in which Mr. Paszkiewicz spoke with his students was careless, inconsiderate and inappropriate,” he wrote to The Observer. “It was an abuse of power and influence, and it’s my own fault that I didn’t do anything about this.”

    One teacher, who did not give his name, said he thought both Matthew and his teacher had done the right thing. “The student had the right to do what he did,” the man said. As for Mr. Paszkiewicz, “He had the right to say what he said, he was not preaching, and that’s something I’m very much against.”

    Matthew said he missed the friends he had lost over his role in the debate, and said he could “feel the glares” when he walked into school.

    Instead of mulling Supreme Court precedents, he said with half a smile, “I should be worrying about who I’m going to take to the prom.”

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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?



    It's not unbelievers that are going all to hell.
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
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    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    What the heck?
    I could understand some discussion, but the discussion seemed to portray it as very one sided. The teacher clearly preaching, and the accusations of a 'payout' don't make sense, especially when the student asked only for an apology.
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    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

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    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Fire the ******.
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    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    I don’t understand how the students would have ever chosen to side with the teacher, that in itself is very un-American regardless of the topic. I am guessing they have been brainwashed or possessed by some kind of parasite that enters thru the ear or they really don’t like the tattletale kid.

    I would send the freak teacher packing, but I would send most teachers packing.
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    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    The teacher was out of line preaching in the class room. That is not where it belongs. (though they don't tell you if he said that in responce to a question or not...)
    As for your post about evolution, I happen to disagree. They are many respected scientists that say the THEORY of evolution is bull. There is no way to prove any one theory, so the school should simply inform children about the most popular theories (Intelligent Design and evolution) and let them make their own desicions. It all comes down to a matter of faith wether you believe in religion of Christianity or the religion of Atheism.
    There is in fact more evidence to support intelligent design than there is to support evolution. As I said though, both should be taught - let the students decide which they will believe.
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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk
    The teacher was out of line preaching in the class room. That is not where it belongs. (though they don't tell you if he said that in responce to a question or not...)
    As for your post about evolution, I happen to disagree. They are many respected scientists that say the THEORY of evolution is bull. There is no way to prove any one theory, so the school should simply inform children about the most popular theories (Intelligent Design and evolution) and let them make their own desicions. It all comes down to a matter of faith wether you believe in religion of Christianity or the religion of Atheism.
    There is in fact more evidence to support intelligent design than there is to support evolution. As I said though, both should be taught - let the students decide which they will believe.
    Normally I stay out of "Jesus is better than science" debates, but the line I bolded above was just too much for me to resist.

    Please expand. I await with eager anticipation.

    As to the topic:

    Keep your damned fairy tales out of any classes not clearly defined as "religious studies." Which, by the way, I will encourage my own son to take as an elective. It's important to learn about religion, but there should under no circumstances be any blurring of the line between science and mythology.
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    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball
    Normally I stay out of "Jesus is better than science" debates, but the line I bolded above was just too much for me to resist.

    Please expand. I await with eager anticipation.

    As to the topic:

    Keep your damned fairy tales out of any classes not clearly defined as "religious studies." Which, by the way, I will encourage my own son to take as an elective. It's important to learn about religion, but there should under no circumstances be any blurring of the line between science and mythology.

    A.
    Don't insult my religion by calling it a "fairy tale".

    B.
    A GOOD part of the scientific community disagrees with evolution (and a good part of them agree with intelligent design).
    I never said anyone could prove intelligent design, but it IS impossible to prove it wrong. It is, on the other hand, possible to prove evolution false.
    Evolution just is a load of it. The media is in favor of evolution and you always here about the evolutionary discoveries going on in the field of evolution (and it's funny how they always change and contradict each other).
    The theory of evolution is like the wind, every changing and inconstant. It is funny to go back and trace the origins of evolution and watch as it mutates and evolves. ;)
    Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Hmm, is there any way to discuss this topic without the thread turning into an evolution versus I.D. debate?

    Vuk, aside from I.D., do you think it's okay that the teacher appears to have told students that a muslim classmate was going to hell? Where would you personally draw the line? Are there aspects of your personal religion which would not be appropriate to lay out in front of students in a class which you were teaching?

    [edit]

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk
    I never said anyone could prove intelligent design, but it IS impossible to prove it wrong. It is, on the other hand, possible to prove evolution false.
    Something that cannot be disproved does not rise to the level of theory in the scientific sense of the word. So it's false to say that I.D. is a theory; rather, it is a belief.
    Last edited by Lemur; 12-18-2006 at 20:47.

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk
    A.
    Don't insult my religion by calling it a "fairy tale".

    B.
    A GOOD part of the scientific community disagrees with evolution (and a good part of them agree with intelligent design).
    I never said anyone could prove intelligent design, but it IS impossible to prove it wrong. It is, on the other hand, possible to prove evolution false.
    Evolution just is a load of it. The media is in favor of evolution and you always here about the evolutionary discoveries going on in the field of evolution (and it's funny how they always change and contradict each other).
    The theory of evolution is like the wind, every changing and inconstant. It is funny to go back and trace the origins of evolution and watch as it mutates and evolves. ;)
    What's your opinion on the FSM? It coherently and elegantly explains much of the evidence that scientists and historians have, and doesn't leave too many loose ends. IMHO it's a disgrace that teachers aren't dressing up as pirates to teach the science of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk
    A.
    Don't insult my religion by calling it a "fairy tale".
    Sorry pal. As soon as you start trying to insert your religion into my kid's science classes, it's open season.

    Present it in an appropriate forum, such as a church (which I attend, albeit not as regularly as my wife would like) or a religious studies class, and you'll find that I am respectful and interested.

    But otherwise, keep your peanut butter away from my chocolate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk
    B.
    A GOOD part of the scientific community disagrees with evolution (and a good part of them agree with intelligent design).
    I never said anyone could prove intelligent design, but it IS impossible to prove it wrong. It is, on the other hand, possible to prove evolution false.
    Evolution just is a load of it. The media is in favor of evolution and you always here about the evolutionary discoveries going on in the field of evolution (and it's funny how they always change and contradict each other).
    The theory of evolution is like the wind, every changing and inconstant. It is funny to go back and trace the origins of evolution and watch as it mutates and evolves. ;)
    I see you disagreeing.

    I see no credible evidence being presented that "a good part of the scientific community" chooses ID (creationism, by any other name) over evolution.
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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk
    A GOOD part of the scientific community disagrees with evolution (and a good part of them agree with intelligent design).
    A good part of the global scientific community, or just the US? As far as I know the US is the only western country where you can say you believe in ID without being dismissed instantly.
    And what is a "good part" anyway? A majority? A third?

    Quote Originally Posted by Navaros
    Evolution is not a scientific theory - it fails to meet the rules of the scientific method which are necessary to become a legitimate scientific theory.
    It sounds like you know a lot about these rules of the scientific method, Navaros. Could you explain them to me, or at least give a quick synopsis?

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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk
    A.
    Don't insult my religion by calling it a "fairy tale".
    I'll try to resist the dark allure of the that temptation. I will as long as you stop slinging insults about science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk
    B.
    A GOOD part of the scientific community disagrees with evolution (and a good part of them agree with intelligent design).
    Hmm, which part is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk
    I never said anyone could prove intelligent design, but it IS impossible to
    prove it wrong.
    Because it cannot be proven wrong means it is not a scientific theory. Scientific theories have to be both testable and possible to be proven wrong. If it is an absolute it ain't a scientific theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk
    It is, on the other hand, possible to prove evolution false.
    Evolution just is a load of it.
    That would be the insult to science. Please stop now, we have nukes and are willing to incinerate the world's atmosphere in just testing them. We also like to blow up ships that protest their use. Think of the bunny rabbits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk
    The media is in favor of evolution and you always here about the evolutionary discoveries going on in the field of evolution (and it's funny how they always change and contradict each other)..
    I wouldn't use the media outcomes as a yardstick of intelligence, they themselves are smart but they are there to sell media and hence make snappy headlines for the masses.. Even if they are in favour of something it is like getting the last pick for a sports team, they won't decide the outcome just make up the numbers on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk
    The theory of evolution is like the wind, every changing and inconstant. It is funny to go back and trace the origins of evolution and watch as it mutates and evolves. ;)
    A self validating theory?
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk
    A.
    Don't insult my religion by calling it a "fairy tale".
    What's wrong with fairy tales?

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    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    Ah, but which version of Intelligent Design do you teach? I personally favour the Flying Spaghetti Monster school of ID.
    I said the most popular theories - that includes evolution and Christian Intelligent design. As you cannot fully explain ever theory, you would have to only inform them about the more obscure theories (Such as the Spaghetti monster).
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk
    I said the most popular theories - that includes evolution and Christian Intelligent design. As you cannot fully explain ever theory, you would have to only inform them about the more obscure theories (Such as the Spaghetti monster).
    Isn't the FSM accepted by a greater range of the world's population than Christian Intelligent Design (which is mainly confined to the US)? Is there a tipping point of popularity beyond which an idea should be taught in school? Does anyone have reliable figures for how popular an idea Christian Intelligent Design is?

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk
    The teacher was out of line preaching in the class room. That is not where it belongs. (though they don't tell you if he said that in responce to a question or not...)
    As for your post about evolution, I happen to disagree. They are many respected scientists that say the THEORY of evolution is bull. There is no way to prove any one theory, so the school should simply inform children about the most popular theories (Intelligent Design and evolution) and let them make their own desicions. It all comes down to a matter of faith wether you believe in religion of Christianity or the religion of Atheism.
    There is in fact more evidence to support intelligent design than there is to support evolution. As I said though, both should be taught - let the students decide which they will believe.
    Ah, but which version of Intelligent Design do you teach? I personally favour the Flying Spaghetti Monster school of ID.

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk
    There is no way to prove any one theory, so the school should simply inform children about the most popular theories
    both should be taught - let the students decide which they will believe.
    Nope. They are students of science and should be taught scientific methodology.
    Science class is not about indoctrinating pupils with given results. The idea that education is a contest between different sets of dogmas is untrue. This very premise is religious in nature.
    Religion teaches dogma. Science teaches pupils valuable tools to form a critical opinion. Hence there is no need to have a popularity contest about what to teach them - they should rather be given a proper science class so they can develop the tools to figure out themselves what to believe.
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec
    A good part of the global scientific community, or just the US? As far as I know the US is the only western country where you can say you believe in ID without being dismissed instantly.
    Yup, it is about as common here as flat-earthers or people insisting they are Napoleon.
    We don't dismiss 'm though - we offer them a cup of coffee, put a warm, friendly arm over their shoulder and ask if maybe they've got a telephone number on them, if there's somebody we can call...

    Meh, if the Americans are going to waste science class by teaching their children Intelligent Design, then soon the Indians and Chinese are going to teach them the real meaning of Intelligent Design: that is, intelligently designed computers, cars, software and bio-tech.
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    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Don Corleone, thank you.
    "Nietzsche is dead" - God

    "I agree, although I support China I support anyone discovering things for Science and humanity." - lenin96

    Re: Pursuit of happiness
    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

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    Mystic Bard Member Soulforged's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk
    As for your post about evolution, I happen to disagree. They are many respected scientists that say the THEORY of evolution is bull. There is no way to prove any one theory, so the school should simply inform children about the most popular theories (Intelligent Design and evolution) and let them make their own desicions. It all comes down to a matter of faith wether you believe in religion of Christianity or the religion of Atheism.
    There is in fact more evidence to support intelligent design than there is to support evolution. As I said though, both should be taught - let the students decide which they will believe.
    Sorry Vuk, but even if you disagree, and correct me if I'm wrong, the teacher has to respect a program wich is provided by the school, is not a purely discretional thing. What he did was wrong on so many levels that it speeks for itself?

    What should be done is another thing. However you're incorrect there too. There's no way to prove Intelligent Design because it parts from supraempirical preconceptions, but evolution is a scientific theory, as such it can be proved, not yet fully proved, but it's susceptible of such thing. And even if both were probable, kids cannot learn every theory on every field, the program has to be reduced to accepted realities to not confuse their minds with unnecessary information.
    Last edited by Soulforged; 12-19-2006 at 00:16.
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  22. #22
    ............... Member Scurvy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulforged
    Sorry Vuk,And even if both were probable, kids cannot learn every theory on every field, the program has to be reduced to accepted realities to not confuse their minds with unnecessary information.
    surely the kids have to learn as muich of the spectrum as possible in terms of theory, especially if neither have been entirely proven - its hardly unneccessary, i'm fairly neutral on the whole creation thing, i exist, so why i exist doesnt really matter - although i did think the person who first called religion a "fairy tale" was being a bit mean

    all of this digresses from the topic, the teacher (apparently) went of of his way to try to teach something to the pupils which was not on the syllabus, and effectively tried to preach to them his own viewpoint, i actually think that teachers should reveal their own views more oppenly when teaching, because it allows pupils to creatively think about a topic in a way that is agaisnt the teachers, ie active learning, however if the teacher only showed his own view then it is wrong... anyway, what's a history teacher doing teaching science, (although you could argue that creation is history)


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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    The thing I love about the anti-big abng brigade is that they always tout it as an axample of anti-theism. Big Bang, a theory which states the universe began in a moment for unkown reasons replaced a theory so pervasive that Einstien fudged his calculations to support it, steady state. Steady State says the universe has always been, unchanging and eternal. Big Bang says someone flipped the switch.

    I fail to see how it contradicts God, if anything it was his biggest PR coup of the last century.

    Evolution:

    Consider this, God seeds the garden, being omnipotent he knows what will grow. He goes on holiday, he comes back, kills the dinosaus with a meteorite because Jesus accidentilly dropped some weeds in with the plants while helping dad. He has breakfast, because Mrs God makes a mean fry-up, he comes back and hummanity has evolved.

    Wayhay, things are getting interesting. So God has a bit of a chat with Adam and decides he can take him out of the Green House, hence man's fall.

    Currently God is having lunch, when he gets back I expect he'll find a way to get rid of all the nasty powerplants that have sprouted in his lovelly garden.

    The Bible is manifestly wrong about dates. Man has history which stretches beyonf the Bible's reckoning, never mind pre-history.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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    Philologist Senior Member ajaxfetish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    The very statement that it is impossible to disprove intelligent design places it outside the realm of science immediately. As to my personal beliefs on the matter, they fall much in line with Don Corleone's. I don't consider a creative God and the discoveries of science to be mutually exclusive.

    However, that whole debate has nothing to do with the issue at hand here. Because of free speech, it is perfectly ok to proselyte as a private individual. The problem is the teacher is not acting in the capacity of a private individual, but as a representative of the school system, and in a larger sense the American government. When he has his 'teacher badge' on, he needs to represent the views of the organizations he represents, even if they contradict his own. If he cannot do so in good conscience, he is in the wrong job, and should either find employment where he represents only himself, or where he represents someone who shares his views. What he does outside of his capacity as a teacher is his own business.

    Ajax

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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    The teacher is totally right.

    Contrary to "popular belief", it's a teacher's job to teach the truth, not propagate the kids' minds with total horse manure which "evolution" and "the big bang" are.

    "Teaching" evolution and the big bang are prosletyzing unfounded propaganda nonsense, and that is fundamentally wrong.

    About time someone took a stand to end that crap.

    Kudos to David Paszkiewicz!

  26. #26
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re : Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Navaros
    The teacher is totally right.

    Contrary to "popular belief", it's a teacher's job to teach the truth, not propagate the kids' minds with total horse manure which "evolution" and "the big bang" are.

    "Teaching" evolution and the big bang are prosletyzing unfounded propaganda nonsense, and that is fundamentally wrong.

    About time someone took a stand to end that crap.

    Kudos to David Paszkiewicz!
    I've been lurking in this forum for like 2 years, and I still don't know if Navaros is talking seriously, or just trolling for the fun of it.

  27. #27
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Frank Viscuso, a Kearny resident, wrote in a letter to The Observer that “when a student is advised by his ‘attorney’ father to bait a teacher with questions about religion, and then records his answers and takes the story to 300 newspapers, that family isn’t ‘offended’ by what was said in the classroom — they’re simply looking for a payout and to make a name for themselves.” He called the teacher one of the town’s best.
    Is anyone willing to consider the possibility that the NYT doesnt have/isnt telling the whole story?

    You've got the school students and residents lining up behind the teacher, making statements like the above- yet we're willing to swallow the 1 student's version hook, line, and sinker. I wonder if the locals might have a better idea of what's really at play here.
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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Last edited by Kralizec; 12-18-2006 at 22:33.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Suspend the teacher , then fire the stupid git .
    If he wants to preach then stick to the pulpit or ranting on streetcorners .

    Contrary to "popular belief", it's a teacher's job to teach the truth, not propagate the kids' minds with total horse manure which "evolution" and "the big bang" are.
    Contrary to that pile of horse manure , it is a teachers job to teach what he is being paid to teach , in a manner and with content that is approved by the education authorities and the school board .
    If he doesn't like it then he can bugger off and get a job that he can do .

  30. #30
    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    When I read the article my first conclusion was that this History Teacher has clearly reached beyond what his subject was suppose to be about. When looking at it in that matter the teacher is clearly wrong from going into science and religion in a history class. From the article. The leading paragraph.

    Quote Originally Posted by article
    Before David Paszkiewicz got to teach his accelerated 11th-grade history class about the United States Constitution this fall, he was accused of violating it.

    Shortly after school began in September, the teacher told his sixth-period students at Kearny High School that evolution and the Big Bang were not scientific, that dinosaurs were aboard Noah’s ark, and that only Christians had a place in heaven, according to audio recordings made by a student whose family is now considering a lawsuit claiming Mr. Paszkiewicz
    But I begin to wonder why a history teacher would approach that subject matter in a history class. If I remember my standard history classes for HighSchool they normally follow the lines of the state history to United States History. The historical effects of religion on American history could be studied in that regrads - especially when one studies several landmark legal cases from the turn of the century to mid 1950. However if the teacher actually broached the material presented in the article - he definitily went down the wrong branch of his stated material for his subject. However a portion of the article that leads me to conclude that there is definitely more to the story is this little bit from the article.

    Quote Originally Posted by article
    The class started on Sept. 11, and Matthew quickly grew concerned. “The first couple of days I had him, he had already begun discussing his religious point of view,” Matthew, a thin, articulate 16-year-old with braces and a passion for politics and the theater, recalled in an interview. “It wasn’t even just his point of view, it went beyond that to say this is the right way, this is the only way. The way he said it, I wasn’t sure how far he was going to go.”

    On the second day of taping, after the discussion veered from Moses’s education to free will, Matthew asked why a loving God would consign humans to hell, according to the recording.

    Some of Matthew’s detractors say he set up his teacher by baiting him with religious questions. But Matthew, who was raised in the Ethical Culture Society, a humanist religious and educational group, said all of his comments were in response to something the teacher said.

    “I didn’t start any of the topics that were discussed,” he said.
    Just leaves me wonder a tid bit.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

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