Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

[Fragony]

It's a problem when blatant lies are taught about political party's, history and when people are basicly told to go out killing rightwing politicians because they be mean.

Don't the yanks read these

"De Amerikanen stuurden een half miljoen soldaten om het Vietnamese communisme uit te roeien. (-) Wanneer de Amerikanen hoorden dat de (communistische) Vietcong zich in een bepaald dorp bevond, staken ze het in brand en schoten iedereen die ze aantroffen dood." (Indigo, geschiedenis)

"Het grootste succes van Gorbatsijov was dat hij een einde maakte aan de Koude Oorlog." (MeMo, geschiedenis)

"Niet iedereen was het met deze superieure houding van de Amerikanen eens. (-) Ook in het buitenland nam het verzet toe tegen de overheersende Amerikaanse principes. Dit bleek op 11 september 2001 bij de aanslag op het World Trade Centre en het Pentagon." (MeMo, geschiedenis)

crikey

[Lemur]

"De Amerikanen stuurden een half miljoen soldaten om het Vietnamese communisme uit te roeien. (-) Wanneer de Amerikanen hoorden dat de (communistische) Vietcong zich in een bepaald dorp bevond, staken ze het in brand en schoten iedereen die ze aantroffen dood." (Indigo, geschiedenis)

"Het grootste succes van Gorbatsijov was dat hij een einde maakte aan de Koude Oorlog." (MeMo, geschiedenis)

"Niet iedereen was het met deze superieure houding van de Amerikanen eens. (-) Ook in het buitenland nam het verzet toe tegen de overheersende Amerikaanse principes. Dit bleek op 11 september 2001 bij de aanslag op het World Trade Centre en het Pentagon." (MeMo, geschiedenis)

I am offended! I am up in arms! Whatever these people are saying, I'm completely against it!

Except that, um, I don't read Dutch. Sorry. Translation for the Dutch-impaired?

[Fragony]

It says that USA went to Vietnam not to fight but to extreminate, that you were pretty good at it, and that you burned all villages and executed all villagers when a vietcong soldier was found. (Yes that has happened, but here in Holland it happened every time). Also, Gorbatjov ended the cold war, and 9/11 happened bacause you are arroganty pricks that got what they deserved.

ok I took a few liberties here, but basicly that's it.

[Kanamori]

Frag's talkin about the vietnamese communists, vietcong doods, that we didn't kill.


Eh, or Frag would post before me:(

[doc_bean]

I am offended! I am up in arms! Whatever these people are saying, I'm completely against it!

Except that, um, I don't read Dutch. Sorry. Translation for the Dutch-impaired?

1. The Americans send half a million soldiers to exterminate communism in vietnam, when the Americans heard the Vietcong where hiding in a village they burned it down and killed everyone they found there.

2. Gorbatsijov ended the cold war

3. Not everyone agreed with the attitude of superiority of the americans - In foreign countries the resistence to the dominating American principles grew. This become apparent with the attacks of 9/11 against the WTC and the Pentagon.

EDIT: late but my translation is teh best

[Kralizec]

"Taarten in het gezicht van politici, ketchup over driedelig grijs, kogelbrieven bij het ontbijt: burgers zijn niet alleen actief in het stemhokje." (Impuls, maatschappijleer)

Well, that's the reality, isn't it? It doesn't say that any of those are good things.

"Door zijn scherpe opvattingen maakte Fortuyn veel tegenstanders. Dat werd hem uiteindelijk noodlottig." (Indigo, geschiedenis).

The truth isn't always pretty.

"De Amerikanen stuurden een half miljoen soldaten om het Vietnamese communisme uit te roeien. (-) Wanneer de Amerikanen hoorden dat de (communistische) Vietcong zich in een bepaald dorp bevond, staken ze het in brand en schoten iedereen die ze aantroffen dood." (Indigo, geschiedenis)

"Niet iedereen was het met deze superieure houding van de Amerikanen eens. (-) Ook in het buitenland nam het verzet toe tegen de overheersende Amerikaanse principes. Dit bleek op 11 september 2001 bij de aanslag op het World Trade Centre en het Pentagon." (MeMo, geschiedenis)

These two are bad though. Your site mentions that they're from HP/De Tijd. I'll see if I can find that particular issue in a library.

[Fragony]

Well, that's the reality, isn't it? It doesn't say that any of those are good things.

They present those things as functional aspects of democracy, sure you see nothing wrong with it? 'burgers zijn niet alleen in het stemhokje actief'. Obvious enough for me, if the votes aren't convenient resort to plan b, intimidation and ultimatily violence. It's a clear hint at Fortuyn's assasination.

[doc_bean]

Honestly, context is everything. Some of our books had essays with controversial points in them, and we had to analyse them and debate them, they could have been taken from parts like that.

[Kralizec]

They present those things as functional aspects of democracy, sure you see nothing wrong with it? 'burgers zijn niet alleen in het stemhokje actief'. Obvious enough for me, if the votes aren't convenient resort to plan b, intimidation and ultimatily violence. It's a clear hint at Fortuyn's assasination.

Or it could just be a cynical take at the matter. Somehow I doubt the publisher of that book intended to convey the idea that death threats are an acceptable form of voter activism.

(side note, remember that Paul Rosemuller and his familiy also got death threats)

Of course some study books are going to be biased, and not just in the Netherlands.

[Tribesman]

So Doc , when you say.....

late but my translation is teh best

Are we to take it that what you put down is an accurate translation ?

Because if it is then Frags.....

ok I took a few liberties here, but basicly that's it.

Is one hell of an understatement .
Soooooo Frag are you lying again ?
You do realise that if you cannot make your point without resorting to falsehoods then you have no valid point to make ?

And as for............
We both know what they mean here,

from



to



is political activism. They should be arrested for calling for violence.
.............
Now despite the very tenous , or even non existant link between spattering a politician with food and shooting him in the head , do you not remember your post calling for violence against immigrants because you dodn't like your countries policies ?

Oh dear Frag , by your own standards you should be arrested

[Fragony]

[QUOTE=Tribesman]
Because if it is then Frags.....
Is one hell of an understatement .
Soooooo Frag are you lying again ?
You do realise that if you cannot make your point without resorting to falsehoods then you have no valid point to make ?
[/B]

It won't score any points with perceptual memorygames, but the message is the same isn't it? Just a yummiefication from my part, as I said. What can I say I'm a poet.

Now despite the very tenous , or even non existant link between spattering a politician with food and shooting him in the head , do you not remember your post calling for violence against immigrants because you dodn't like your countries policies ?

No, probably because I never said that, what I did say when it seemed like riots were spreading to Rotterdam and that I'd be happy to go there and wash their ears. Which, if so, I was going to do, but alas the riots never happened. You still promised me something though.

have a few,

[doc_bean]

So Doc , when you say.....
Are we to take it that what you put down is an accurate translation ?

1 and 3 are reasonably accurate, 2 is a simplification but that doesn't really matter

[Fragony]

That's what I thought, but then again I am less prone for psychotic episodes then iraboy here, the rabies got the better of him I guess.

[Ser Clegane]

No more personal attacks and back to the topic please

[Randarkmaan]

The problem was he was proselytizing Christianity. If he was a Marxist and told some bourgeois kid he was going to hell, he might get away with it.

I don't see how that would have happened... anyway Marxists are atheists. I don't really see what's wrong with many people here, at once when someone has done something stupid who is not a leftist, liberal, black or muslim they immediately say that had he been leftist, liberal, black or muslim he would have been praised rather than critisized. What sort of bull is this? What makes so many people think that there is some sort of international leftist-liberal-black-muslim conspiracy which is blaming all the worlds problems on white conservative people? And what's so wrong with the idea stated in many text books and by many people that the world would be a little better if we learnt to get along? I know it's unlikely but it's a nice idea, it's just like having a goal of no deaths in the traffic, unlikely, but it's a nice goal.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I've been reading Marx recently, he's a Christian Humanist, as well as a Communist.

For some reason the US has a problem with anything other than fundamentalist Christianity. That doesn't mean that there aren't other types of Christians but what is the odd minoriety here in Europe seems to be the norm in the US now.

The Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury have both given the green-light to evolution. Why do Christians in the US have a problem with it. Even more so, why do they have a problem with the Big Bang.

Vuk, Nav, do you guys actually believe the world is only 6,000 years old.

[Goofball]

Or maybe the kid was a well-known, snotty pain in the ass (with a rich lawyer daddy) who's always trying to stir up trouble- as suggested by the comments in the article. Who knows?

Dont mind me though- I don't want to get in the way of the witch-hunt...

There are tape recordings of this teacher preaching to his class when he is supposed to be teaching them history.

Don't mind them though. Wouldn't want them to infringe on your "Christians are oppressed victims" complex...

[Don Corleone]

Even the most biased and leading of polls place creationism and intelligent design adoption at ~35% here in the US. Ones that are somewhat more balanced and objective place it at about 15%. So yes, it probably has more of a following here in the US than it does in Europe, it's hardly a majority opinion. And just for the record, Navaros is Canadian.

[Tribesman]

1 and 3 are reasonably accurate, 2 is a simplification but that doesn't really matter

Thanks Doc , a nice demonstration of how the alteration or omission of a few words during translation can completely change what was originally written to suit the agenda of the translator .
So to recap ....The Americans send half a million soldiers to exterminate communism in vietnam....can become
It says that USA went to Vietnam not to fight but to extreminate.......if people are of a mind to change the meaning of what is written to suit their purposes .

Which ties in quite well with this topic about spouting from a very old heavily edited multiply translated book and claiming it as the absolute truth . Though of course this topic spreads into spouting it in an environment where the spouter is being paid to say something else entirely .

[Navaros]

For some reason the US has a problem with anything other than fundamentalist Christianity. That doesn't mean that there aren't other types of Christians but what is the odd minoriety here in Europe seems to be the norm in the US now.

The Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury have both given the green-light to evolution. Why do Christians in the US have a problem with it. Even more so, why do they have a problem with the Big Bang.

Vuk, Nav, do you guys actually believe the world is only 6,000 years old.

If it's not fundamentalist, it's not Christianity. It's apostasy. End of story.

The US is one of the last bastions of Christian population members who are not apostates.

The Pope and Archbishop of Canterbury are both apostates, and they have absolutely no legitimate connection to God or Christ.

Why legitimate Christians have a problem with evolution and the big bang is because it is contrary to what the Word of God declares to be true. In addition to being severely contrary to all sorts of other vital aspects of the Word of God apart from the "face value" discrepancies, ie: man's sin nature.

Remember, God and Jesus said that a friend of the world is not a friend of theirs. The world loves apostates who claim to be Christians. But the fact that the world has no problem with them is alone enough to prove that they are not really followers of Christ; since Christ himself said that the world will hate those who stay true to his teachings.

I do not know if the world is 6000 year old but it surely is a lot closer to 6000 than the malarkey time frames evolutionists would give.

IIRC Don Corleone's numbers in the above post are quite wrong as has been proven in a thread on this board a few months back that caused him to get very upset that apostates and secular humanists were starting to get outnumbered by Bible-believers.

[Kralizec]

You should buy a dictionary, Nav.

An apostate is someone who entirely gives up his faith. As such the Pope and the Archbishop can never be considered apostates. You might consider them heretics for holding corrupted beliefs. I doubt that they'd care, though.

And considering your beliefs in regards to Islam and Judaism, one might consider you a heretic as well.

[Navaros]

You should buy a dictionary, Nav.

An apostate is someone who entirely gives up his faith. As such the Pope and the Archbishop can never be considered apostates. You might consider them heretics for holding corrupted beliefs. I doubt that they'd care, though.

The Pope and Archbishop have entirely given up their faith: they put the evil thoughts and desires of men ahead of what God said. Surely that is definitely giving up their faith in God and replacing it with faith in evil man himself. In addition to committing what the Bible says is the one unforgivable sin: turning the Word of God into a lie. This is exactly what the apostate church as described in the Bible consists of.

EDIT:
I just looked up heretic to be sure, it's a synonym of apostate. So I'll have to agree that in addition to being apostates, the Pope and Archbishop are also heretics.

[Kralizec]

Neither ever said that Genesis was a lie. They're just interpretating it differently. You can think that they're stretching the text, but neither denies the verity of the text itself.

If you were entirely consistent in what you think, you would label Muslims apostates as well- since the Qu'ran is basicly a rewrite (with some additions) of the Old and New Testaments.

Suit yourself, Nav. I hope that one day you're going to write your own dictionary. I'd buy one, it should be good for a few laughs.

[Ser Clegane]

Calling members of certain branches of the Christian church apostates/heretics is not appropriate here.

If this further descends to bashing people with different views on Christianity than yours this thread will be closed and appropriate actions will be taken.

Thanks for your attention

[Goofball]

Calling members of certain branches of the Christian church apostates/heretics is not appropriate here.

If this further descends to bashing people with different views on Christianity than yours this thread will be closed and appropriate actions will be taken.

Thanks for your attention

Burning at the stake?



Sorry, couldn't resist. It's just something I never thought I would hear in an online gaming forum.

BTW, thanks for the new siggy.

[Tribesman]

In addition to committing what the Bible says is the one unforgivable sin: turning the Word of God into a lie. This is exactly what the apostate church as described in the Bible consists of.

So Navaros , which bible is it you talk of when you talk of the Bible ?
You never have clarified which version of scripture it is that you think is the true one .
Is it the bible that was given to you by those "apostates" you condemn or is it a bible you have discovered all by yourself and kept hidden from the world ?

Why legitimate Christians have a problem with evolution and the big bang is because it is contrary to what the Word of God declares to be true.

So since you are a legitimate Christian Nav do I take it that when you have a house that suffers from damp you get a preacher in to purify it with bird blood , or if you have a zit or boil do you go to an Aaronite priet and get put in isolation for 7 days ?
If not then you are an apostate for being contrary to the word of god

[Watchman]

Maybe I'm thinking of this too simply, but doesn't the denial of evolution more or less require the denial of the entire heredity principle - which it so happens is both readily observable and been used by people for millenia to mold domestic animals and plants alike to their purposes...?

Always kinda wondered about that.

[Ser Clegane]

Burning at the stake?

I'll have to check with Tosa if he could add that to the moderators' toolbox...

[Kralizec]

Maybe I'm thinking of this too simply, but doesn't the denial of evolution more or less require the denial of the entire heredity principle - which it so happens is both readily observable and been used by people for millenia to mold domestic animals and plants alike to their purposes...?

Always kinda wondered about that.

Well domestic animals like dogs, cats and even cows (I think) are still interbreedable with their wild ancestors. Till that changes I'm not sure if we can talk about different species. When we can, however...

What's silly (IMO) is the belief that the Earth is a measly 6,000 years old, and the implicit or explicit denial of prehistoric peoples.

[Watchman]

And dinosaurs. Do the cads not have a thought for the kids, who're smitten with those cool critters ?