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    Sacrelicious Member Rameusb5's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Since when did getting a teaching certificate count as a license to teach whatever the hell you want? This guy should be fired immediately. I could care less what the "community" thinks. I grew up in a small mid-western town where a lot of people looked the other way as history teachers taught straight out of the Bible instead of the textbook. I actually had one teacher (chemistry) disrupt his own curriculum to rant about how the history teach tought evolution even though he was REQUIRED BY LAW to do so. Thanks for wasting my time. Thanks also for brainwashing yet another generation in thinking that there could only possibly be one answer, so why bother trying to explore the world around you at all? Try doing your job instead. It's why we pay you.


    If you want your kids to learn about religion, take them to church. There are plenty to choose from. But school is mandatory for kids and should NOT be used as a forum to spread your own personal beliefs, no matter HOW right you happen to think you are.


    I'm really getting sick of people who take side with a wrongdoer simply because they approve of his message. I wonder how they'd feel if the teacher had said that Islam was the true faith and all Christians were going to hell? The way I see it, it's EXACTLY the same thing.
    Rameus

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rameusb5
    I could care less what the "community" thinks.
    On a completely different side-note:

    I could care less
    I couldn't care less


    I hear and read both versions. Logically, 'I could care less' makes no sense, it means you care a lot. Yet I see it so often it is probably not a mistake. Nor does anybody ever seem confused about it, or tries to correct either one. Apparently, rather than meaning the opposite, both have the exact same meaning of 'I don't care'.

    Why is that? Why is that? Why is that?

    Is it yet another Anglosaxon plot to confuse foreigners? A prank that you're all in? From Alaska to England to New Zealand? Just another one of those genetic designed linguistical defects of the English language, where opposites can mean the same and the same often can mean the exact opposite?

    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 12-21-2006 at 22:16.
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    On a completely different side-note:

    I could care less
    I couldn't care less

    I hear and read both versions. Logically, 'I could care less' makes no sense, it means you care a lot. Yet I see it so often it is probably not a mistake. Nor does anybody ever seem confused about it, or tries to correct either one. Apparently, rather than meaning the opposite, both have the exact same meaning of 'I don't care'.

    Why is that? Why is that? Why is that?

    Is it yet another Anglosaxon plot to confuse foreigners? A prank that you're all in? From Alaska to England to New Zealand? Just another one of those genetic designed linguistical defects of the English language, where opposites can mean the same and the same often can mean the exact opposite?

    No, it's an idiotic type from people who speak English and are lazy. They do not mean the same thing but if I piped up every time I'd get a reputation as an arsehole.

    It's the same as "could of" instead of "could have." Learn to scan over it and read it as "Couldn't care less."
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    On a completely different side-note:

    I could care less
    I couldn't care less


    I hear and read both versions. Logically, 'I could care less' makes no sense, it means you care a lot. Yet I see it so often it is probably not a mistake. Nor does anybody ever seem confused about it, or tries to correct either one. Apparently, rather than meaning the opposite, both have the exact same meaning of 'I don't care'.

    Why is that? Why is that? Why is that?

    Is it yet another Anglosaxon plot to confuse foreigners? A prank that you're all in? From Alaska to England to New Zealand? Just another one of those genetic designed linguistical defects of the English language, where opposites can mean the same and the same often can mean the exact opposite?

    As the properly civilised peoples in the British Commonwealth know, the correct phrase is "couldn't care less", meaning the speaker cares so little about the subject that it is not possible for him to care any less than he already does. However, we forgive the Americans for making this mistake as English is a foreign language to them, since they've been separated from civilisation for over 200 years. There may be plans to invade the Americas and bring culture to these benighted peoples if our government can spare some time, but I doubt it, since we British simply couldn't care less.

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Ah, so both mean the same. 'Couldn't' is the proper form in the Commonwealth and both could and couldn't are correct, at least: used, in the US. It's mainly an American vs Commonwealth English thingy then?

    Naturally, I'll stay clear of any debate about preferences of Commonwealth over US English - I couldn't care less which is English proper.
    I will use both when adressing Americans and make sure to use couldn't in all other instances. (Or rather, I won't as there's no way I'll remember this six months from now...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wigferth Ironwall
    if I piped up every time I'd get a reputation as an arsehole.
    Hehe, if you 'piped' everytime over here you'd get quite a different reputation...and not for sucking on a pipe.
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
    Texan by birth, woodpecker by the grace of God
    I would be the voice of your conscience if you had one - Brenus
    Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft - Fragony
    Not everything
    blue and underlined is a link


  6. #6
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Wait! This just in: there's more to it than American carelessnes!

    English-language prescriptivism has always had a solid admixture of anti-Americanism. Yet the Oxford English Dictionary has allowed 'could care less' since 1966, and for good reason. The melodies and stresses are completely different. 'Could care less' is not illogical, it's sarcastic:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Caring less with stress
    I thought I had already broken the ultimate taboo, but it turns out that there were some depths yet to be explored. Believe it or not, I'm about to defend Richard Lederer against Steven Pinker.

    In a recent Language Log post, Eric Bakovic gives Lederer a hard time for asserting that people who say I could care less are being illogical.

    Eric's first argument is that since people use this form just about as often as I couldn't care less, Norma Loquendi has spoken, and we need to listen. I agree with Eric up to this point. Eric offers some Google counts in support: the two phrases are about equally frequent. In an earlier posting here, Chris Potts listed I could care less as an example of the "handful of English constructions in which, quite surprisingly, one can add or remove a negation without change of meaning", and he took it for granted that this is just a usage to explain, not an error in logic.

    Speaking for myself, I don't take this to be a point of principle, that whatever is said or written reasonably often must ipso facto be part of the language.. Especially where negation is involved, there are plenty of common mistakes, like fail to miss used to mean "miss", or no X is too Y to ignore used to mean "no X is so Y that one should ignore it." It can be a complicated question, conceptually and practically, to decide whether such cases are constructions, fixed expressions, idioms or whatever, as opposed to natural mistakes that people often make in using a psychologically difficult combination of elements and structures. This is partly a question of linguistic analysis, and partly a question of psychological interpretation, and partly a question of social norms. In any case, the categories of "mistake" and "English expression" are obviously overlapping, psychologically, historically and socially.

    However, I don't think there's much question at all about could care less, which has clearly become a well-accepted colloquial expression in contemporary American English. This conclusion can claim the sanction of the OED, which gives sense 4 of care as

    4. In negative and conditional construction: a. not to care passes from the notion of ‘not to trouble oneself’, to those of ‘not to mind, not to regard or pay any deference or attention, to pay no respect, be indifferent’.

    and then among the various subtypes listed (e.g. care a button or a fig) comes eventually to the specific phrase in question,

    (c) Colloq. phr. (I, etc.) couldn't care less: (I am, etc.) completely uninterested, utterly indifferent; freq. as phr. used attrib. Hence couldn't-care-less-ness.

    for which the earliest citation is from 1946, and then gives an explicit listing to the unnegated form:

    (d) U.S. colloq. phr. (I, etc.) could care less = sense (c) above, with omission of negative.

    1966 Seattle Post-Intelligencer 1 Nov. 21/2 My husband is a lethargic, indecisive guy who drifts along from day to day. If a bill doesn't get paid he could care less.
    1973 Washington Post 5 Jan. B1/1 A few crusty-souled Republican senators who could care less about symbolic rewards.
    1978 J. CARROLL Mortal Friends III. iii. 281 ‘I hate sneaking past your servants in the morning.’ ‘They know, anyway. They could care less. Thornton mistreats them horribly.’

    with a first citation a mere 20 years later. The OED does tell us that (I, etc.) could care less is a "colloq. phr." -- but so is (I, etc.) couldn't care less. The only difference is that (I, etc.) could care less is a "U.S. colloq. phr."

    This is not much of a difference for Lederer to hang his hat on, but then English-language prescriptivism has always had a solid admixture of anti-Americanism.

    OK, so far, so good. Eric, Chris, Google, the OED and I are all in agreement.

    But Lederer is not off Eric's hook yet. Eric points out that Steven Pinker has written about could care less, both in The Language Instinct and in a 1994 New Republic article. The crucial Pinkerian passage is this:

    A tin ear for stress and melody, and an obliviousness to the principles of discourse and rhetoric, are important tools of the trade for the language maven. Consider an alleged atrocity committed by today's youth: the expression I could care less. The teenagers are trying to express disdain, the adults note, in which case they should be saying I couldn't care less. If they could care less than they do, that means that they really do care, the opposite of what they are trying to say. But if these dudes would stop ragging on teenagers and scope out the construction, they would see that their argument is bogus. Listen to how the two versions are pronounced:

    COULDN'T care I
    LE CARE
    i ESS. LE
    could ESS.

    The melodies and stresses are completely different, and for a good reason. The second version is not illogical, it's sarcastic.

    (By the way, could care less is hardly used only by "today's youth" -- the authors of the OED's 1966 and 1973 citations are presumably old and gray by now, if they are even still alive.)

    As Eric says,

    ...this hypothesis has the added advantage of not insulting the intelligence of the half of the population that uses the allegedly incorrect form. (The only thing missing is independent evidence that the same intonational distinction holds of other sarcastic-nonsarcastic utterance pairs; Pinker also does not cite any sources for this claim, unlike many other claims made and discussed in the book.)

    But unfortunately, that's not the only thing missing. Pinker doesn't provide any evidence that the claimed difference in stress and/or pitch is actually used to distinguish these phrases, or that it would have the asserted effect on interpretation if it did. And unfortunately for this otherwise neat hypothesis, I'm fairly confident that (a) the two phrases are not generally distinguished prosodically as Pinker asserts they are; and that (b) the cited prosodic difference would not as a general rule yield the asserted (sarcastic vs. non-sarcastic) difference in interpretation.

    I promise to examine the examples in some conversational speech corpora to evaluate (a), and show you all the pitch tracks. And I'll say more later about (b), and how to evaluate claims like this. For now you'll just have to take my word for it , or rather, take note that I disagree with Pinker's analysis. But I've put in some time working on the analysis and synthesis of English intonation, and I'm fairly confident that Pinker is stretching a bit here, as Tom Sawyer might have said.

    Whatever the origin of I could care less -- and it's as likely to have to been confusion about negation as sarcasm -- by now, it's just an expression. And as Eric hints, grammar anti-mavens may also sometimes try to make us believe something false just by asserting it.

    It wouldn't surprise me to learn that Lederer has never bothered to read Pinker's account of the alleged intonational disambiguous of could care less. But if he had read it, the kindest thing might have been just not to mention it, as indeed he didn't.

    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 12-22-2006 at 02:23.
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
    Texan by birth, woodpecker by the grace of God
    I would be the voice of your conscience if you had one - Brenus
    Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft - Fragony
    Not everything
    blue and underlined is a link


  7. #7
    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    As the properly civilised peoples in the British Commonwealth know, the correct phrase is "couldn't care less", meaning the speaker cares so little about the subject that it is not possible for him to care any less than he already does. However, we forgive the Americans for making this mistake as English is a foreign language to them, since they've been separated from civilisation for over 200 years.
    The propriety of grammar or idiomatic expression is determined by the nation with the larger GNP.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    The propriety of grammar or idiomatic expression is determined by the nation with the larger GNP.
    Then I suppose in 50 years time you'll be looking in the Beijing English Dictionary or Zhang's Modern English Usage for the correct usage of the English language.

    I think I'll stick to English as spoken by the English.

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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    Then I suppose in 50 years time you'll be looking in the Beijing English Dictionary or Zhang's Modern English Usage for the correct usage of the English language.
    Such does nothing for Albion

    I think I'll stick to English as spoken by the English.
    Very provincial of you.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

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    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    I think if you borrow someone else's language the least you can do is look after it and not give it back all mangled and mispelt. If it was the lawnmower you'd borrowed and snafu-ed there would be no neighbourhood barbecue at the weekend!

    Hey, Louis - if English was logical then "flammable" and "inflammable" would be antonyms Just remember, English syntax and grammar were developed during our early history as a secret weapon to weed out spies and infiltrators.... (anyone that can get it right MUST be a foreigner who's studied too hard )
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    The propriety of grammar or idiomatic expression is determined by the nation with the larger GNP.
    Thinking about it, there may be some substance to this assertion. English, as spoken by the Indian upper class, retains some archaisms that were present in the 19th century, but which have disappeared or changed in English English during the 20th century. One could say Indian English is the purer form, while English English is the bastardised version. Certainly cricket reports from India have a Wodehousian quality to them that seems quaint to modern English eyes.

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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    Thinking about it, there may be some substance to this assertion. English, as spoken by the Indian upper class, retains some archaisms that were present in the 19th century, but which have disappeared or changed in English English during the 20th century. One could say Indian English is the purer form, while English English is the bastardised version. Certainly cricket reports from India have a Wodehousian quality to them that seems quaint to modern English eyes.

    I've heard the same. Several journalists I know actually prefer to read Indian and Pakistani papers precisely because of the preserved quality.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Speech: Okay to Prosletyze When Teaching Class?

    I would like to think that my English remains as free of Americanisms as possible, sadly despite my best efforts even I am not as pure as I would wish.

    I have an agreement with a friend of mine, she picks me up on my Americanisms and I apolagise and slip back into Home Counties English.

    With America its not the pronounciation or grammar so much as the spelling. "Favour" is spelt that way for a reason. "our" represents something halfway between "er" and "ar." If Americans really wanted to pronounce it phonetically why do they spell it "favor" instead of "favar" or "faver?"

    Still at least it allows the English, Canadians and Australians to make fun of you chaps.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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