Turks: Best spear unit is ?

[Shahed]

Hi All !

It's approaching 1170 in my one and only campaign so far, and yeah I'm beginning to look forward to the Mongol and Timurid incursions. So much actually that I think I'll mod them to arrive soon.

From my experience in general, the heavy cavalry charge is invincible. If cavalry get off a straight charge, your infantry is dead no matter what it is. Anyway this thread is not about the charge, so please do NOT post here on that. I'm talking infantry.

What I need to know as Turks is what is the best infantry to employ to pin Mongol cavalry while I use my own cavalry to hit them. Or basically what infantry will hold a bridge etc. I played against Spain in Iberia and 4 units of Merc Spearmen, got WTFPWNEDBBQ'ed by 4 bodyguards crossing the bridge, with 2 infantry following. Then I just made a wide circle let them cross and smashed them with my own cavalry (horse archers).

I would however, like to be able to hold a bridge with infantry.
What did I do wrong ? 4 spear units is not enough ?

I think at the current state of the game, only cavalry can beat other cavalry (support from infantry does ofc help a great deal)

JHI of course can kill cavalry, but still takes a massive 50-60% casualty rate on charge impact. I don't want whole armies of JHI. I like some flavor to it, it would'nt be fun for me to play with a 20 JHI stack.

From the looks of the stats the Dismounted Sipahi Lancers (lol?) are the best spear unit available to the Turks.

What are your thoughts on this ? Any advice/suggestions/remarks most welcome.

Salute !

[Flavius Gonzo]

No doubt, the Turkish campaign is a blast. I may not be the best to answer your question, the Mongols finally arrived in my campaign last night, (it's like turn 65 or something, I was expecting them after turn 50), but I do have some thoughs on spearman.

I'm at work now, so I don't have access to the stat differential between Sacaren Militia and Dismounted Siphai Lancers. However, I'm becomming convinced that even if they have substantially better stats, the DSLs just aren't worth it. You get 60 vs 75 men, and the main problem I have is that it's a pain to manage them. It depends on your play style, but personally, I convert about 1 out of every 2-3 castles I capture, usually I do this in areas where there is a castle nearby and the settlement is a port (and hence, good financial) settlement. Anyway, if there isn't a castle nearby it's still more effort/time money to train DSLs than the Sacarens. The DSLs don't get free upkeep anywhere, and they can be fewer in locations. Plus, training and retraining DSLs often comes at the cost of training other units you definitely need, like Ottoman Infantry and Naffutun (I love those little guys!) So I'm starting to think that in the long run it will be easier and less of a financial burden to do away with the DSLs altogether.

But, I'm looking forward to hearing other player's thoughts...

[Shahed]

Points taken.

First of all I'd like to clarify my game a it more. I only have 3 castles, Caesarea, Smyrna, Tiblisi. Along the North African coast I intend to have only castles, but anyway that's the whole other direction. Basically I will make Tiblisi my stronghold for the Mongols and Timurids. I'll produce and replenish troops from there. Basically the only castles I want are the fringes of empire. I'm already starting my army buildup and already have 20+ DSLs, out of 4 full stacks sitting near Tiblisi. Actually one of those stacks is training killing rebels in Russian territory (with military access).

SM = Saracen Militia
DSL = Dismounted Sipahi Lancers

Advantages of SM over DSL:

• Difference of 15 men in favor of SM over DSL
• Free upkeep in cities
• Schiltrom formation
• Lower Upkeep in the field
• Easier to replenish
• Less drain on military production

Can someone do the math on the manpower ? Puzz ?.

What about the schiltrom, it does'nt seem to help much, does it ? They still get slaughtered.

Money is not an object as I have more than enough positive cash right now. that will change with Black Death, naturally.

The supply castle is near so that's not an issue, but it probably will be an issue to focus on DSL rather than let's say Kapukulu or Turcomen.

It boils down to the schiltrom, the manpower difference (i.e what mathematical advantage/disadvantage does it give) IMO.

I've tested both in custom and both are completely shattered by Khan's Guards. The 15 men don't seem to help, neither does schiltrom.

I'm just starting to build infantry now, solely for the Mongols.
Would love to see the Naffas, must be cool. Janissary acrchers are cool as well, Ottoman Infantry is decent, bows and swords, perfect.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that DSLs can be upgraded to splint mail while SM can only be upgraded to Heavy Mail. This gives DSLs 1 more point of armor, for what it's worth.

[Basileus]

To be honest i never used DSL my self, i always went for Saracens in my inf armies and against the Mongols. Late in the game my high tech armies didnt even have any spear units, i used JHI/JA/JM and the heavy cav with some artillery and it was a blast.

[Flavius Gonzo]

Jannisary Archers! Where do they come in? What do I need to build to get them?

Somewhere on the ORG I read that putting spearmen in guard mode and at least 5 ranks deep would substantially help against a heavy cav charge, I've been doing it against the Hungarians and it has helped against mailed nights for sure, as Sacs can definitely hold out for much longer in then they were before.

Also, one cautionary tale on the "Mongol" build-up. I started planning/building for this around turn 45. It was way to early, as I said the mongols just showed up around turn 67ish. As a result, I had several full stacks sitting around getting paid for nothing at the river crossings near Bagdhad, and my economy went from a point where I had buckets of cash and never even had a to think twice about the cost of a unit or building to where some turns I couldn't even keep all cities building the whole time.

The problem is, you only get I think 1-2 turns advanced notice that the mongols are en route. So you can't wait until then. But in hindsight I would have waited longer for the build-up, maybe at least until turn 50. It would have risked being partially prepared when they arrived, but it would have saved a lot of Florins.

[Basileus]

Flavius Gonzo, you can train Jannisary Archer in a city with Army Barracks.

[Shahed]

To be honest i never used DSL my self, i always went for Saracens in my inf armies and against the Mongols. Late in the game my high tech armies didnt even have any spear units, i used JHI/JA/JM and the heavy cav with some artillery and it was a blast.

What was the result of using the spearmer initially ?

Actually I will avoid all elite stacks. I limit elite troops to maximum 6 or 8 per stack. I consider this to be elite, althought the elite status is now gone from M2:TW, unlike MTW:

-All Sipahi
-Kapukulu
-All Janissaries

I'm trying to make it a bit hard on myself and also it's all about flavor.

Jannisary Archers! Where do they come in? What do I need to build to get them?

....I've been doing it against the Hungarians and it has helped against mailed nights for sure, as Sacs can definitely hold out for much longer in then they were before.

You need (IIRC) Army Barracks to produce Janissary Archers (JA). Royal Barracks fruther increases their production.

I think (not sure) Jannisary Musketeers (JM) also come from the same buildings (not sure!).

I've also done tests of JM vs Timurid Artillery Elephants and Timurid Elephants and JM can win 1 vs 1 against both if they have terrain advantage. Of course if they are shielded or the elephants are distracted it's easier.

2 JM vs 1 Elephant unit, it takes 90 seonds for the elephants to be destroyed or routed. But the JM always have to be shielded, if they are trampled it can be a mess. You can see the test here (post no.58):

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...2&postcount=58

How did you use the spears against Hungarians ? What formation etc ? charging in ? walking ?

[katank]

Did you try 2 deep loose formation for your spears? Have a unit like that to act like the sponge that absorbs the charge and then charge in the rest to finish off the cav. 6 units of shiltroned spears is sufficient to hold a bridge head usually.

Note that I've managed to mangle 4 units of flemish pikers guarding a bridge with 3 units of general BGs before. Heavy cav is simply uber. If you don't care about roleplay, I'd recommend countercharging or simply guard the bridge with arrows (works real well).

[Hashashiyyin]

Saracen Militia suck compared to Dismounted Sipahi lances.

why? because the Sipahi have good moral and stamina and that will always win a fight between the two.

I'd try a combination of hashashim at the front, followed by a mix of JHI and DSL. The Hashashim's 2 hit points will help them soak the charge and then the JHI and Sipahi and cut through the cavalry.

[Basileus]

Sinan, i only went for open battles with the Mongols when they only had 2-3 stacks left and all of them wherent close, dont expect the Saracens to win teh battle their was to keep the line when the mongols charged so that i could counter charge/flank them with my Heavy Cav. Expect to lose a lot though cause i always felt that even if i won a battle it was more like a loss after the loses you will sustain.

Easiest and so far most sufficient way to kill Mongols is defending in Citadels/Fortress, for me atleast.

[Flavius Gonzo]

In a battle with Hungary last night, I had Critical matchups between Sac militia and some mailed nights and an enemy generals unit.

I had to fight two mixed unit stacks, one about 2/3 strong and one 1/2 strong, with a 3/4 sized stack of my own mixed stack including 3 trebuchets and a catapult.

The way the battle played out, I had my SMs set to guard mode in front of the artillary, and the Hungarian general and a unit of mailed knights from the re-inforcement army both got off great charges into those lines. I had 3 units in 5 deep formation set to guard mode. 2 of them got hit hard by the charge, but held, and I managed to flank the general with the 3rd, and surprisingly, they all held the line until I managed to get my general and 2 siphais into that fight. They were pretty far away though, and the SMs did manage to hold the line and protect the arty for a good bit of time without much help. If the enemy cav had gotten through to the Artillary, I'm certain I would have lost the battle outright. Battle difficulty is VH, and this is much better performance than I usually get out of SMs vs. cav, so I attribute it mostly to the guard mode thing. But who knows if there was other factors in play (fatigue, exp, command stars, etc.)

[Varyar]

Well, the Janissary Archers can use stakes. Luring the enemy to charge/pursue an infantry unit retreating through the stakes is as sneaky as it is bloody.

Otherwise I'd probably use Saracen Militia backed up by those lovely Naffatuns and perhaps a unit of JHI or Halberd Militia. I don't think any turkish infantry unit, unless very experienced, can hold off heavy cavalry on its own without assistance.

[Marquis of Roland]

Best way to kill mongols is to outrange and outshoot them. Here's my 2 cents on that:

My army's composition -
1 General
1 Hashishim
2 Trebuchet
4 Janissary archers
4 Saracen militia/DSL (can add 2 more by taking out 2 ottoman if need be)
8 Ottoman infantry

Get to a defensible hill (hopefully one that is flat on top to put your artillery on). It's important for your artillery to outrange theirs, especially if they have multiple armies coming at you at the same time.

Start 4 Janissary archers in front in 2 deep formation and drop stakes to get as much stakes on the ground as you can. Move Janissary archers behind ottoman infantry after battle starts. Put 2 saracen milita in 2 deep line in between ottoman infantry and stakes. Put remaining saracen militia or DSL protecting flanks. Have a few stacks of ottoman infantry ready to come in when you run out of ammo (only reason to have Janissary archers in beginning is for stakes, if mongols break through you will need better melee troops, thus ottoman infantry). All archers on skirmish except for 2 ottoman infantry supporting spearmen in the center. This will gain you missile superiority against a missile army, something you need if the other guy has greater mobility than you.

Stakes in front of your entire army ought to discourage any major heavy cav incursion (if they haven't already been ventilated by 12 archer units on the way up the gut), and with spearmen in blocks on the flanks, chances are they'll have a hard time at that as well. The ottoman infantry are in a position to rush up and repulse any kind of infantry the mongols have that can get through the stakes (assuming they haven't been mowed down actually getting there).

I chose Saracen militia over Janissary heavy infantry because I hope with their shield they'll be better able to absorb missile damage. Besides, no point in putting one of your most expensive offensive units in there just to take arrow hits.

Cav is useless against mongols; they are faster than yours and there's lots of them. Don't try to pin them and flank with cav, it is a bad idea that, even if it works (the mongols never made a direct frontal assault on me until they shot up my flanks considerably), puts your cav in between their attacking force and their reinforcement which are usually right behind them (the AI's ability to bring multiple armies onto the field makes this problem serious).

Concentrate massed arrow fire to break up any major attacks and stagger your archer fire so you have at least 4-6 units still shooting while the rest switch out with reinforcement as they run out of ammo. Use your artillery mainly for anti-battery fire and for breaking up massed concentrations of men.

[KARTLOS]

i am surprised you spears got smashed by the spic generals. where were they placed? were they at the entrance to the bridge or on it? I find rushing a couple of units into the entrance of the bridge helps - typically this units will take the charge of a whole mongol army - they will nearlly all die though and i support the first two units with at least two more spear units thrown straight after the charge. i would have thoguht 4 spears should be sufficient for four spic generals.