Thinking of uninstalling the patch!

[Satyr]

I am tired of the new bugs introduced into the game with the patch and I think I am going to uninstall it/reinstall the game. There are a few items that just seem too broken to keep it. I have suiciding generals back. I have terrible pathing in cities for cav and cav archers in particular. I have cav that seems even worse at charging (at least I knew how to handle the old behavior) and also seems just as bad at chasing and killing routers. I have cav, and to some degree infantry, that just can not maintain unit cohesion and doing the 'loose/tight' microing doesn't seem to work as well anymore either. I generally don't play with archer heavy armies so I hadn't had too much trouble with the passive ai bug so I am probably going back to the original game. Anyone else thinking of doing the same?

After the RTW fiasco I sure am disappointed. Hopefully they can actually get something right in the next patch otherwise I am done with new CA games.

[HaroldVonBraver]

I agree with the cavalry. They should just have left it the way it was. I was actually getting used to it. Now cavalry just charges all over the place with their lances. It just doesn't look right anymore. Other than that I like the more agressive AI.

[Whacker]

The foolish chasing-down-routers pathing is still there, but from a cohesion standpoint I think that it's markedly improved for all units. It's still not as good as it was in RTW (which I actually think has the best cohesion of the games so far) but it's definitely a step up. Charging still seems pretty wonky but at least I can get most of my cav to line up and hit the enemy at the same time.

[Tora]

The pursuit of routers, where one or two advance individuals make contact with a fleeing enemy, only for their whole unit to halt the chase and reform, is frustrating to say the least.

Watching 10000 florins worth of King evade capture time and again by several hundred seemingly lobotomized pursuers is enough to drive me up the

[Satyr]

The 2 items that are pushing me in this direction are the inability of cav archers to get out of their own way, let alone the spears coming after them, in cities. If left untended they get caught and slaughtered every time. And having the general suicide into my spears battle after battle is putting a serious dent in the challenge. I mean he dies, the whole army routs, then my stupid cav can't even chase down and capture/kill the runners, I thought this got fixed in the last game! Oh well, I do enjoy that the AI is pushier and that they are invading via the sea, but I am not sure the cure isn't worse then the disease.

[Dan.o6]

Chasing down routing units need be seriously fixed...

[Von Nanega]

The pursuit of routers, where one or two advance individuals make contact with a fleeing enemy, only for their whole unit to halt the chase and reform, is frustrating to say the least.

Watching 10000 florins worth of King evade capture time and again by several hundred seemingly lobotomized pursuers is enough to drive me up the

I wonder if putting a unit chasing routers under AI assistance would help. Will test and find out.

[Quillan]

I just played tonight for the first time since installing the patch, and I have to agree. The mounted units chasing routers is even worse than it was prior to the patch. In 3 different battles I sent some mounted sergeants after routers only to have this disjointed gaggle of troops scattering all over the battlefield. It didn't look like cavalry pursuing a target to me. In fact, what it looked like makes me think I need to mod in some new battle music. Can anyone tell me where to download the music they played over the ending credits of The Benny Hill Show?

[BigTex]

The problem with chasing routers was there pre patch also. And it was just as bad. After a unit routs the attackers immediatly halt, stop reform, then wait a moment, turn to face the correct direction. Then they return to fighting. During all that they will also halt all attacking, even if the enemy king is right in the middle of 10 of them. Most irritating thing I've ran into.

Best way I've found to deal with this is to move them quickly, then after they get going attack again. Not a real solution but it sorta works. Granted thats what I did prepatch, havent gotten into a position post patch for that to work. There's also the problem when chasing routers for them to completely halt for a minute or two. Or cav will also when pursuing spread out into hugely spaced formations.

[Whacker]

The problem with chasing routers was there pre patch also. And it was just as bad. After a unit routs the attackers immediatly halt, stop reform, then wait a moment, turn to face the correct direction. Then they return to fighting. During all that they will also halt all attacking, even if the enemy king is right in the middle of 10 of them. Most irritating thing I've ran into.

Best way I've found to deal with this is to move them quickly, then after they get going attack again. Not a real solution but it sorta works. Granted thats what I did prepatch, havent gotten into a position post patch for that to work. There's also the problem when chasing routers for them to completely halt for a minute or two. Or cav will also when pursuing spread out into hugely spaced formations.

My experience with chasing routers is that the chaser will spread out in every single direction like a supernova instead of staying as a single unit trying to kill the chasee.

[BigTex]

My experience with chasing routers is that the chaser will spread out in every single direction like a supernova instead of staying as a single unit trying to kill the chasee.

Aye thats what I meant. No real way to describe what happens. They'll be 3 men left in the routing unit, they'll be clumped together, but the pursuing cavalry will spread out and try to fill the entire map while chasing them.

[holycow]

theme song frm benny hill show is actually a song called yakety sax, i believe frm the 50-60's,

[sapi]

Try to keep on topic mate

[IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer]

THANK YOU. I thought I was the only one with cavalry that is physically and intellectually incapable of catching routers. It's definately worse after the patch. I CANNOT stand to see that I tell my Turkomens to chase an enemy general down, only to see they ran along side the unit the whole time and ESCORTED them off the map instead of killing them. Sigh.

[Tora]

It's not only the pursuers that scatter all over the place, the pursued do too.
I've had several incidents post-patch where a routing unit has left the field yet the pursuers are still trying to get at them, the reason being that an individual of that unit is still on the field and a considerable distance away too, - on one occasion stuck behind a ladder - but he doesn't have a banner or marker on the radar to show he's there, and with this seasons relatively drab outfits he's rather difficult to spot.
Oddly one routing unit came back on the pitch and only when I killed them all did a banner pop up above the individual, about 400m away. May be a partial explanation for the behavior of some pursuers. I remember having similar trouble with stray individuals after installing DarthMod in RTW.

[Von Nanega]

THANK YOU. I thought I was the only one with cavalry that is physically and intellectually incapable of catching routers. It's definately worse after the patch. I CANNOT stand to see that I tell my Turkomens to chase an enemy general down, only to see they ran along side the unit the whole time and ESCORTED them off the map instead of killing them. Sigh.

Nice of them to ensure nothing bad happened to them as they left the killing fields.

[Quillan]

That particular issue cropped up back in RTW. The game tried to put the center of the pursuing unit in the center of the running unit. If the running unit was scattered, by terrain or knockdowns or whatever, there would be a gap, and the pursuing unit would sit happily in the gap, never dropping back to pick off the stragglers or catching up to the lead units.

As to the Benny Hill them song, I know the title, but if I just asked where I could download Yakety Sax I don't think many people would understand the reference. Everyone who's ever seen an episode knows exactly what I'm talking about at the end credits.

[OMGLAZERS]

Unit cohesion is horrible. It was SO good in Rome. I mean, I remember in Rome being able to form amazing army formations of gaps and holes to trap units and flank..

But in Medieval, I can barely hold my guys together to do any kind of honest to god manuvering.

It just becomes one big melee with every unit smashing in the center while my calvalry and archers TRY and move around!

[katank]

Unit cohesion is definitely wonky. I've had a case where I was chasing an enemy infantry unit and it got killed down to 2 men who were 1/2 a map's edge distance apart! My light cav got confused and kept expanding and contracting, not catching either one of them.

[Satyr]

You know, after playing for a while now, and loading a couple mods to help things along, this game is so close to being really good but it just annoys the hell out of me so that I almost hate playing it. At this point I just wish CA would ignore any other small issues and just fix unit cohesion, cav charging (which still sucks big time), and pathing in cities. Everything else would be easy to live with if these things worked right.

[OMGLAZERS]

You know, after playing for a while now, and loading a couple mods to help things along, this game is so close to being really good but it just annoys the hell out of me so that I almost hate playing it. At this point I just wish CA would ignore any other small issues and just fix unit cohesion, cav charging (which still sucks big time), and pathing in cities. Everything else would be easy to live with if these things worked right.

So he trading in hemp you say?

Agreed.

What mods are you using?

Personally, the 2H and Towers fix as well as the 'Ultimate AI' mod for me.

I think I liked Shaba Wangy's mod more though.. in a test between the two, I can't figure out the better.

[Dead Knight of the Living]

My experience with chasing routers is that the chaser will spread out in every single direction like a supernova instead of staying as a single unit trying to kill the chasee.

I actually believe this is more realistic. During Routers typically aren't going to take off all in the same direction. Therefore, the units you send after them will spread out to kill them all.

After Alexander defeated Darius at Gaugamela the Persians dispersed. And a lot of Alexander's army, including himself, rode out after them. Not necessarily all in perfect formation either. From what I read he left a lot of his men behind in pursuit.

Then they had to call him back to help out Parmenion. It was total chaos. So you all want a bug to fix the total chaos that occurs when one army is defeated and is in flight (in all directions)?

An even better example of this would be the disorganized Turk hunt that the Christians went on after they broke the siege of Vienna in 1683. Or you could even use the disorganized chaos the Turks experienced leading up to the siege. Units scattered all over the countryside pursuiing their defeated enemy.

When you smell blood, there are very few who can issue orders to curb your ravenous desire to feast on it.

[IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer]

Sorry, but you cannot use any sort of historical justification for the present state of unit cohesion and router chasing AI. Yup, I'm sure battles were quite chaotic, but in a game, they should be managable or else it won't be fun. And sending in my heavy infantry to attack and watch only 15 of the guys in the unit actually attack while the other 105 chill out behind them is, oh, what is that word that I'm looking for, oh yeah, it's the exact opposite of fun.

I don't think it's a bad game by any means. It's fun, but that doesn't negate the fact that CA should be embarassed for being okay to release this game in the state it was/is in. It shows a major drop in quality and care in their products that is easily visible to the customer.

[OMGLAZERS]

Ironic, in that this game is the most indepth and best in almost every quality except the SMALLEST details!!!

It's hugely funny to me.

Although I imagine it's to be expected. Shogun wasn't some massive undertaking but it was unique so it did well. M2TW is much bigger on every scale (duh) so i'm sure bugs get through, but I can't imagine they're too hard to fix.

I wonder sometimes if they do it because they know the community will go 'NO NO NO NO, *THIS* is how you do it!'

I mean, look! There are mods fixing the bugs for the towers, 2H problems, improving campaign AI beyond what CA could dream of doing, and mods for Vice and Virtue issues.

If they had just given the unpacker since day one, there'd be less complaining since.

HECK, they should make the entire thing neigh open source (not fully, obviously) and people will fix just about any bug. We're just that loyal to the game. :P

[Quillan]

That isn't unique to this game; when they released the SDK for Civ 4, a few of the fans started playing with the code heavily. Some AI improvements were made that got incorporated into the official patches even. Games are complex, and get more complex every generation. Bugs are going to slip through, and there are a lot more people playing after release to find those than in any beta test period. The more tools we have at our disposal, the more obvious stuff we can fix.

[OMGLAZERS]

That isn't unique to this game; when they released the SDK for Civ 4, a few of the fans started playing with the code heavily. Some AI improvements were made that got incorporated into the official patches even. Games are complex, and get more complex every generation. Bugs are going to slip through, and there are a lot more people playing after release to find those than in any beta test period. The more tools we have at our disposal, the more obvious stuff we can fix.

Absolutely.

CA's only MAJOR mess-up was not giving the unpacker at day one. Had they, they could have just worked with the community instead of pissing them off.

[Satyr]

Quillan, the thing to realize though is that only one person, in his spare time, in a couple months, did more for the AI of Civ4 than all the patches before that. If all it takes is one Blake to fix the program, why can't the developers bother? Take a look at GalCiv2 and see how much effort the developers have put into the AI and game play. That is a GREAT game now because someone cares.

As to unit cohesion, if it was only an issue chasing routers I would have no problems. But as was pointed out above, when only 12 of your infantry are fighting and all the other guys are sitting in the back playing poker and taking a toke, that is broken.

[OMGLAZERS]

Take a look at GalCiv2 and see how much effort the developers have put into the AI and game play. That is a GREAT game now because someone cares.

Is that game really any good? My friend lent it to me once, I installed it, and forgot about it.

If it's worth anything, ill go play it and try it out. It looked clunky and overly indepth to be any fun.

If it's anything like Orion, i'll give it another go.

Agreed about the cohesion by the way.. it's just stupid.

It makes me want to autoresolve battles. I have to just double click behind the melee area to get them to lump together.

Whats sad is that we won't see a patch till Feb or March EARLIEST !!

[Quillan]

If all it takes is one Blake to fix the program, why can't the developers bother?

Because the developers aren't Blake. Blake plays Civ 4 with a skill I can barely conceive. I hang around on Noble and Prince, while Blake routinely wins on Deity. Top off his play skill with strategic skill and programming skill, and Blake (and others like him) can take the game places the developers couldn't. They come up with the ideas, and give them a direction, but the players take that to places they never imagined. How many times have games been patched for exploits that seem obvious in hindsight but nobody ever considered in advance?

[Zenicetus]

Quillan, the thing to realize though is that only one person, in his spare time, in a couple months, did more for the AI of Civ4 than all the patches before that. If all it takes is one Blake to fix the program, why can't the developers bother? Take a look at GalCiv2 and see how much effort the developers have put into the AI and game play. That is a GREAT game now because someone cares.

It's also a great game because the dev team can focus only on the strategy map AI. There is no tactical combat in that game, and IIRC there is also none in the Civ series (never played it). With the TW series, you're getting twice the game, twice the potential, twice the bugs.

Is that game really any good? My friend lent it to me once, I installed it, and forgot about it.

If it's worth anything, ill go play it and try it out. It looked clunky and overly indepth to be any fun.

If it's anything like Orion, i'll give it another go.

No tactical combat like Orion -- you do everything on the strategy map. Space battles are auto-calc'd, and you see a 3D movie of the action. I enjoy GalCiv2 and still go back to it once in a while. It's pretty deep on the diplomacy side, and has a very cool Lego-like ship builder module. It also allows other than military wins; you can win by cultural domination or reaching the end of the tech tree before anyone else. It's a very different flavor from RTW or M2TW... less action in the early game when everyone is colonizing planets and not in direct conflict. In TW games, the fighting starts early and it's the only way to play the game.

Sorry if that was getting a little OT here, but we are discussing game design. Given today's budgets for games, advertising etc., I like the fact that I'm getting both tactical and strategic AI in the TW series. And even though the developer disagrees (he says he'd never do it), I think GalCiv2 would be a better game if it had a deep tactical combat module.