Merchants: You CAN use many on one resource.

[katank]

I forsee forts being used as forward strike bases for total agent warfare. I personally think that it would be cool to use spies to id potential targets and then a merchant/assasin combo to make "an offer that he cannot refuse" to AI merchants, then dash back into the fort on the same turn for protection.

[Shahed]

There you go, now that's creative.

[General Zhukov]

It's a very creative idea. I also think it's one of those cases where player ingenuity runs ahead of dev foresight. It seems like an important part of the trade system is the idea that merchants have to place themselves in some kind of jeopardy, to ah, venture their capital so to speak in the course of their business. That idea is bolstered by the fact that they "make enemies" and become more prone to assassination.

Relatedly, is it possible to group a merchant with an army, station them both on a resource and gain trade income? If so, it might have a similar "protection" effect for the merchant(s), though presumably an army would irk rival factions more so than a fort. (are they irked by forts?)

[Musashi]

I dunno... I never put forts in enemy territory. To be honest I never send my merchants to other faction's territories except for Timbuktu, and even then I try to acquire Timbuktu for myself. I prefer to keep them in my own territory where I can shield them.

But yes, a merchant can join a military stack and still make money under their protection... And of course you can have more than one merchant attached to the stack.

I've actually found that there may not be any limit to the number of agents attached to a stack, considering that I can put more than 20 spies in an enemy city.

[todorp]

Sinan, Great discovery. To me it IS historically accurate. The Venetians, Genoese and the Baltic Hansa had fortified trading posts and trading colonies. One of the most famous ones was the Venetian and Genoese fortified trading post Pera (today Galata in Turkish) across Bosporus next to Constantinople.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galata_Tower

[Shahed]

Relatedly, is it possible to group a merchant with an army, station them both on a resource and gain trade income? If so, it might have a similar "protection" effect for the merchant(s), though presumably an army would irk rival factions more so than a fort. (are they irked by forts?)

Right now I'm using this idea.

Constantinople, which has been the front line for fighting off Crusades for about 60 years, has 4-5 forts surrounding it.

The Northwestern fort serves as a base for an Infantry army (the Sword of Hussein), which can deploy along the road, south towards Thessalonica, or north towards Sofia. This is mainly an army in training, but serves as the province garrison.

The fort also serves as a trading post, a diplomatic mission and as a secret service HQ.



The Southwestern fort is base to an all cavalry army (The Sword of Suleyman). This army is used for intercepting Crusades and other hostile forces as they are spotted by spies in neighbouring regions. This army is deployed beyond the empire's frontiers from this base, to hunt down hostiles. This army has successfully campaigned as far afield as Bern.

There are two "feeder" bases housing reserve troops for both armies. These reserves are deployed as and when the armies are in the field. The forts are then manned by fresh reserve troops coming from Izmir (Smyrna) and Malazgirt (Caesarea).

The cities have their own militia garrisons.

The same can also be done in hostile territory but since merchants (apparently) make more florins on their own territory, it may be best to do it on you own territory. You can also negotiate military access with an ally and establish this sort of HQ in their territory.

Of course as a superpower, you can also just walk in and push people around.

I've actually found that there may not be any limit to the number of agents attached to a stack, considering that I can put more than 20 spies in an enemy city.

That's great ! I have'nt tried that yet but sure will.

Sinan, Great discovery. To me it IS historically accurate. The Venetians, Genoese and the Baltic Hansa had fortified trading posts and trading colonies. One of the most famous ones was the Venetian and Genoese fortified trading post Pera (today Galata in Turkish) across Bosporus next to Constantinople.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galata_Tower

Thanks.

That's an excellent example you gave there. Bravo !
Anyway in game it's a lot of fun to do.

[Divinus Arma]

This is an excellent addition to the game. I would just love to see the AI be able to do the same thing. There is really only one other use for a fort in my opinion: plugging natural barrier bottlenecks to delay invasion forces.


If the AI could create these "trading posts" AND the vassal feature worked a bit better...

[brokguitar]

Hi guys,
I think its a great find IMO. Merchants were a unit i thought was usless. Trying to keep track of them + taking up recruitment q's+ micromanagement gets a little tedious. The fort is a great idea that gives me less micromanaging on agents and a use for them.
I have seen a exploit the AI uses in a very similar situation.
EXAMPLE:
Next to Jerusalem is a small lake. The AI will recruit a mercanary boat with a general and place imams on the ship. Of course there is no way for a player to take out the ship unless player recruits ship on the lake to destroy it. Very smart move on the AI part but it was most likely not intended by the Devs.
Great find!!!!

[past caring]

Hmmm.......

1) Presumably you build the fort off to the side of the resource a little bit, rather than actually on it?

1. You can build the fort wherever the game allows you to. You can build it to the side also, but why notsmack on top ?

Maybe just my game - or my poor eyesight - but merchants only appear to work when placed adjacent to a resource (at two o'clock or North East) rather than directly on or over it. It could be that they work when directly over it, but I only get the "opening new trade" dialogue when they're placed adjacent, so that's where I've always placed them......

[General Zhukov]

If you use this exploit, i.e. create a new trade system that the AI doesn't understand the rules of and therefore can't compete in, why not just save the hassle of building dozens of merchants to stack in forts and just cheat in the console for money? Less effort, plus this way there's no need to come up with justifications like: "they had trading forts in real life!"

[Aedile Rich]

The theory that merchants in forts make less money is false, I believe.

You can verify that easily by:

1. Put merchant in fort.
2. Hit end turn.
3. Check the income from THAT merchant by right clicking him.
4. Make note of that income.
5. Remove merchant from fort. (hence destroying the fort)
6. Hit End Turn.
7. Move merchant back on resource.
8. Hit End Turn.
9. Check the income from THAT merchant by right clicking him.
10. Make note of that income.
11. Compare the income figures.

I've tested this on the Western bank of the Bosporus, outside Constantinople. Here you find 2 instances of Silk at equal resource value. A merchant in fort (of equal finance skill) made the same as a merchant outside the fort.

The theory that merchants in forts disperse AI merchants may be true in some cases.

However in Constantinople I have seen hordes of AI merchants, no matter, if my merchants were in forts or not. They've even horde-ed Constantinople when all my merchants were in Timbuktu (literally). So it may apply in some cases but did'nt seem to apply in my case.

I don't think the likelihood is that the fort will cause a single merchant to earn less from the resource but perhaps that multiple merchants might have the income split between them.

This, imho would make it much less of an exploit, especially if it worked it out as a percentage of their potential - ie. Two merchants on one resource; one that could gain 100 and one that could gain 50 would gain 75 between them off the shared resource.

Sound fair?

[Shahed]

Sorry past_caring, that's what I meant by on top.

Zhukov, The discussion is no longer about cheats but your suggestion would be an easier solution if all you wanted to do is cheat.

This has now evolved past a trading system, in which the AI cannot compete. The intention of the system was never to compete with the AI but to use multiple functions for resource tiles. It can be used for espionnage and military HQ. Contrary to what you have implied, this system does not necessarily mean you have all your merchants in forts. In my game only 4 merchants are in forts (the ones in the screenshot above) the rest are scattered from Russia to Timbuktu.

Aedile I've already tested that, merchants of equal finance skill earn exactly the same inside or outside the fort. i.e Alan with finance skill of 4 earns the same as Barney with finance skill of 4 outside the fort on equal value resource. It would be nice if the AI could do the same, if the income was split between merchants, that would be fine too. But it's really not a big deal because you won't bother with 20 merchants on the same spot, I imagine. If you used it like that it would be an exploit.

I don't consider it an exploit, it's not raking in 10,000 Florins per turn for me, more like 400. Not sure if everyone understands what I'm doing but I tried to explain it in the screenshot in post #36.

An off topic remark, about AI not being able to compete, well ??? .... it can't compete in anything. It cannot compete with any TW player who played more than 30 hours of any TW game. Most of us here played waaaay more than that. Most of the cases it probably cannot compete with a newbie, once they've got the interface mastered, it's over for the AI. It cannot compete, it is challenging in numbers and it IS GOOD, but it can't compete with a human.