Venetian Campaign - War Against Byzantium, Sicily, Milan, and Hungary

[Merciless_Doge]

Well, since about turn 5 I have been attacked from just about every faction you can imagine. I've done everything I can to keep the Pope in my favor and often other factions are ex-communicated for attacking me (I also produced one Pope, but he only lasted two turns). So what exactly is the reason for this *aggression* against Venice? I sometimes plea for ceasefires and there are always a failure. And Sicily, in particular, has been outrageous when asking for a ceasefire but only if I am to give up two of my regions!

I was kinda hoping to play Venice to get a good feel for the trading and economical aspect of the game (which is not entirely solid) so that I could last longer in a more military campaign with a true military power...but so far I have found just the opposite.

Any thoughts? Anyone else playing a Venetian campaign? I am currently at turn 97.

Thanks and happy MTW2'n.

[Flavius Gonzo]

I haven't played as Venice yet, but my guess is that part of the reason may be because of the strategic location of the city of Venice itself. Especially early in the game, it's the only good route from East to West and blocks access to the Italian peninsula for most factions.

And also you're right in the thick of things, with many neighbors at your borders compared to other factions. You should expect more wars than if you were on the edges of the campaign map, i.e. Egpyt, Moors, England, etc.

[Alden]

I've played (or at least started) a lot of Venice games and I can tell you this:

If you take Durazzo, you'll get into it with Byz real early
If you take Zagreb, you'll get into it with Hungary real early
If you play as Venice, you'll get into it with Milan real early

Before the patch, ditto on Sicily. Since the patch they usually seem more interested in building an empire in Africa.

And also, if you wipe out Milan, you'll probably have France breathing down your neck for the rest of the game as well. If you want to turtle, the best thing to do is don't take Zagreb or Durazzo. And wait till Milan has taken Dijon and, ideally, Marseilles, before you take Milan and Genoa from them. That'll leave them weak enough to pose no real threat, you in possession of the very-defensible north Italian plain and with no shared border with France (unless they have Bern)

Then all you have to worry about is the eternal enmity of the Germans.

And incidentally, HRE will sell you Bologna on turn 1 for a pretty decent price if you combine it with an Alliance, Trade Rights and Map Information. I've gotten it for as little as 2350/turn for 2 turns or 500/turn for 12 turns. Its a good spot for a castle. Sicily will hate you if you do this - factions seem to resent castles on their borders a lot more than they do cities.

[trickydicky]

Well I've only played the one Venice campaign so far. I tended to ignore expansion off the Italian peninsular to start with. I took Florence straight away, Allied with everyone, and I mean everyone.

After that I built up my trade a little in Venice and Florence, I then invaded the two med Islands. At this point Milan was starting to get a bit itchy about Florence, so I reduced the Garrison a little and they attacked, repeatedly....then got Excommed

At that point I kicked them out of Italy proper. I have to say things start to look up at that point.

A couple of things to bear in mind.

1) If you have a strong Military, usually the AI will leave you alone. (I had a full stack on the bridge outside Venice, also one in Florence, and one in Riga.

2) Use your princess(s) to secure alliances, and gift a little money to the AI now and again to keep up relations.

3) If necessary, keep a small (but tough) army in the mountain pass between Bologna and Florence.
For some reason Milan attacked me here, repeatedly - I then used the high ground to tell them who was boss, repeatedly.

4) Wait for the AI to attack you, when they get Excommed, strike hard and fast.

5) If at all possible, don't get into a multi front war, do whatever is necessary to keep the peace with other surrounding factions.

6) Don't give up.

Once you unite the Italian Peninsular things are looking good, you can precede any which way you want, at that point.

[Quillan]

I am currently in 1207 AD in a campaign as Venice, where I've played as the totally chivalrous leader. I executed no prisoner, nor did I ever ask for ransom. I sacked no cities, nor did I ever exterminate, only occupied. As initial moves, I established trade rights with the HRE, then alliance, then purchased Bologna from them for something on the order of 1000 florins per turn for 7 turns. This followed a few turns later with mutual military access, and over the course of the game I continually gifted them with map information and small monetary donations to maintain the relationship status. I formed a similar alliance with the Pope, and another with the Byzantine Empire. Through the entire 127 turns (1 year per turn) I have not been attacked by either the HRE or the Byzantines, and I did take Zagreb and Durazzo. I was jumped by Milan as usual, and finally had to push them out of Italy for security. I was also jumped by the Sicilians and took them out of the game for total control of the peninsula apart from the Papal States.

I have been at war with the Turks (crusade against Antioch, which was rebel when it was called but was taken by the Turks before my army arrived) twice, the second time dragged in by helping my Byzantine allies in battle, and with Hungary twice, once in the same circumstance of helping the Byzantines and once when they attacked me. Spain attacked me once we shared a border, but France asked me for an alliance and hasn't broken it despite me deliberately ignoring them.

I suspect in large part it is a matter of reputation, otherwise known as global relationship modifiers to all factions. Keeping that up makes it easier to establish peace arrangements. Other parts include maintenance of a good relationships, which seems to require regular trades or gifts on your part, and possible triggers for war. I've come to suspect that each faction has one or more "target" provinces that causes them to attack the owner.

[Alden]

I imagine, Quillan, that if you kept Byz buttered up that way, things could stay cool with them for a long time. A lot of their behavior depends on how well or poorly their near-inevitable war with the Turks goes. But I don't think I could bring myself to do that - I've played enough Venice games that I now harbor a huge pool of residual loathing for the faction, carried over from one game to the next ^_^

Its the only faction I know of that will go out of its way to ask for an alliance the turn before it plans to attack. Because why initiate a just-plain-ol war when one can do a Betrayal! seems to be their thinking. Besides, I'd just as soon they invest in desolate Durazzo during the first couple generations and then I'll take it from them later on when it's plumped up a bit!

In my newest Venice game, I threw everything that wasn't nailed down into boats and invaded Egypt on turn 12 or so, then abandoned the European provinces entirely. Just for a change of scenery. I just like the faction. Fond of the units and its a very handsome flag.

[GrandInquisitor]

Reputation really doesn't matter. I've played several games (none all the way to the end, but extended games) and in all my experiences I've learned this:

A certain number of AI factions WILL be out for your blood, no matter what you do. And just when you think you can breath easy because you've taken one out, another (often a 'secure' ally) will be waiting in advance. No matter how generous or chivalrous I've been, I never have any more luck getting a ceasefire. The only way to get a ceasefire is if the AI will offer one, but that tanks within three turns (often the same one) when they've got a new army to pester you with.

I've found it unrewarding to be diplomatic in M2, except to the Pope.

[Alden]

I maintained good relations with France for a couple hundred years with a different Venice game, even though we shared a border. The way I did it was to fight their interminable war with Spain for them. Every few years, Spain would march across the Pyranees and take Toulouse. Then I would take it back from Spain and gift it to France. Just about the time our relations had eroded back down to so-so or worse, here come the Spaniards for another go at Toulouse.

For three generations, this was the duty of the faction heir. I got a lot of really good battles in that game.

Its not quite the same thing as just giving them cash every few years. It doesn't feel so craven.

[Wallas]

Hostile neighbours make playing venice interesting on vh/vh. I might even lose some setlement from time to time.

On the other hand it makes conquering easy. If you keep high relations to the pope and you are allied with him the attacking factions get excommunicated easily. Then you an freely take their settlements wihtout facing the wrath of the pope. Also use crusades to the excommunicated factions and the AI will be at war with them very soon and you will get very usefull traits to your leaders without having to go to the east end of the mediterranean.

[Rothe]

If you want advice, you need to tell us your campaign difficulty.

I recently played as Venice on H/VH and I had no problem with byzantines, and little trouble with the milanese and HRE. Sicily was the only faction that I fought off continuously. And I did take Durazzo and Zagreb too.

Later I fought off the Hungarians, but that was to be expected after taking Zagreb. Later I managed to get peace with them too...

Diplomacy just requires money/map gifts. Also, do not neglect tributes. Just 100 per turn given to all your neutral/allied neighbours gives you back more money than you invest in less troops lost/less trade routes severed.

[Merciless_Doge]

If you take Durazzo, you'll get into it with Byz real early
If you take Zagreb, you'll get into it with Hungary real early
If you play as Venice, you'll get into it with Milan real early

Thank you - this matches my experience very well, except I have yet to get into it with Milan. :)

Also, some of your comments regarding having castles on other faction's borders may increase hositility. That may be a very good point as I have Bologna as a castle and, of course, Sicily doesn't like that one bit.

I am playing on Hard campaign mode, Very Hard battle mode.

Thanks for your comments. I was more venting than anything else and wondering why this is happening - from my understanding of Venetian history, they were in relatively few wars with other, major Christian powers (except for Byzantine).

[afrit]

Now on tunr 63 of vh/vh venice campaign.

Have been at war with Byz, Hungary, Milan, Sicily in addition to Egypt (crusade) and France (mostly naval blockades only).

I have yet to eliminate one of these factions!! I never feel I have enough strength to send an army deep into their territory to finish them off (except Sicily, but they reconciled )


I think Venice is a challenging faction to play because:

1. You are in the middle of the map, ergo a lot of factions may attack you.
2. You need a strong fleet, and because all naval battles are auto-calced, they are a lot more costly than land battles.
3. There is no easily defensible border unless you're aggressive and secure Italy. If you like to turtle and play quasi-historically (i,e go after Rhodes, Cyprus, Constantinople and the Levant), you will have almost all your cities on the border.

On the other hand, the city units of Venice are very good.

[Alden]

I'm generally very reluctant to call Crusades when playing Venice. Because it results in all those Crusaer Armies that didn't win the race traipsing back to their homelands right through my territory and they'll almost always take a poke at my cities on the way through.

And the thing is that the sort of army AI puts together for a crusade is the sort of army that's very difficult to kill - 14 Spears, 4 Knights and a General is pretty typical. There's not much room for monkeying around against that sort of thing - you just have to wade in. If AI built armies like that all the time, and just forgot all about ranged units (that it uses so poorly) and annoying artillery, it would be a lot more formidable.

Quantity has a quality all its own.

[Morindin]

Well. On the other side of the fence...

Byzantium Campaign - War against Venice, Sicily, Hungary, Turkey, HRE, Egypt, Poland, France.

You got it easy ;)

[TevashSzat]

In my vh/vh long campaign as Venice... I kinda attacked everyone that attacked you. It is turn 37 right now and I have 27 province. Byzantine Empire, Milan, Sicily is destroyed and Hungary is down to capital city. I first attacked Milan and killed them off followed by HRE for Bologna and Byzantine because I just can't keep enough of the silk near Constantinople. Pretty soon there was a 7 faction alliance against me - HRE, Byzantine Empire, France, Sicily, Hungary, Denmark, and England. That is down to 5 faction now and almost 4... They never offer ceasefire though but that is probably i am very untrustworthy

[Raf Fariszta]

Hi everybody: Venice vh/vh, 25 turns. War against HRE, Milanese, Byzantine.Alliance: Hungary, France, Pope. Neutral neibourhood Sicilly,Turkey.I ve got 6 towns and 6 castels: Zagreb, Rodos(still under Biz siege), Ajaccio (still under Milanese siege), Creta (still under Biz siege), Synopa (still under Biz siege), Bologna (will be attacked by HRE soon - I had just killed imperor during siege).Hungary are loyal to me, Sicilly after failed siege of Durazzo, asked for peace. I bought Korynt from Biz. and took Saloniki from them - Imperor with 8 stars aproaching there. Its really cool game - good luck.

[sapi]

Now at ~turn 40 of my current venitian campaign.

At turn one i precipitated a mass exodus to the holy land, giving venice and irkanon to the pope at around turn 5 (when i realised that'd be a good idea) and losing ragusa to sicily at the same time.

Now while my various experiences in the different area of the map are irrelevant, what is interesting is that i've had no trouble getting ceasefires - everyone comes begging for them after i've smashed their offending army, and i even managed to net gaza off the egyptians for only 1.7k x 3 turns payment.

So it's not all bad :P

And Raf Fariszta, welcome to the Org!

[Raf Fariszta]

Now at ~turn 40 of my current venitian campaign.

At turn one i precipitated a mass exodus to the holy land, giving venice and irkanon to the pope at around turn 5 (when i realised that'd be a good idea) and losing ragusa to sicily at the same time.

Now while my various experiences in the different area of the map are irrelevant, what is interesting is that i've had no trouble getting ceasefires - everyone comes begging for them after i've smashed their offending army, and i even managed to net gaza off the egyptians for only 1.7k x 3 turns payment.

So it's not all bad :P

And Raf Fariszta, welcome to the Org!

Thanks - its nice Sapi.
Your idea about migration to the Holy Land is interesting. In early period of the game thera are a lot of rebel towns ( I think - I havent played there yet). What about Mongols - have you met them??

[sapi]

I've never actually faced them seriously in battle - in this campaign it's too early and i finished my egyptian one years before they appeared.

It certainly should be intersting, as i expect western troops to get torn up against them :P

[Alden]

I've done the same thing in my current Venice game, sapi. I hit the beaches at Alexandria around turn 12, bagged Cairo a couple turns later, then had Pope call a crusade on Jerusalem and grabbed Gaza on the way there. Split my stack and rolled up Acre and Damascus, then paused for a few turns to catch my breath and took Antioch on turn 33.

Holy Lands sure are a lot easier to stabilize when your Capital is at Acre.

I've fought Mongols with Venice in previous games and Venetian Archers do a great job against them. They ran me out of the outremere in spite of that but I was also contending with unrelenting Imam and Spy offensives from Egypt and the Turks plus an overwhelming gang-bang from France, Germany and Hungary back home and I had to prioritize. Hoping it goes better this time around.