Question about cavalry stats

[Arkatreides]

Why do cavalry units have such a low (compared to vanilla) attack value and such a huge charge bonus. How do these two values affect combat, e.g. how does a Att 4, Charge 34 unit compare to a Att 6, charge 25 unit? Do the values just get added?

Bit confused here ...

[Dumbass]

I think the atk 4 is probably the lances; the secondary weapon probably has a different stat.

[Domitius Ulpianus]

not a 100% sure but I always assumed att value is their regular attack value and the charge value is a "bonus" that gets added when the cavalry unit sucesfully charges an enemy unit...thats why you see a lot of casualties at the exact moment of the charge and then the death/ratio slows down....In any case with cavalry units you should always try to charge (preferably from behind) retreat them and charge again...rinse, repeat till they break....and then chase em hehe.

[Fondor_Yards]

The high charge vaule and low attack is to show a guy with a giant giant can do a lot damage charging but once you are stuck in meele it's a lot harder to kill people. Which is why most cavalry units carry an AP weapon for the meele combat, so it's easier to kill them.

[Spoofa]

yeah, you cant get much thrusting power with a 2 handed lance/pike/spear when your horse is stationary, which is why after they are done charging make them attack with their secondary weapon or retreat them.

[Count Belisarius]

The effectiveness of cavalry during this period of history was based on movement, momentum and shock. Once a horse, especially an unarmored horse, stopped moving, it became relatively easy (if dangerous) to bring down. And once the horse went down, the (former) cavalryman became a none-too-enthusiastic (and probably injured or stunned) infantryman, i.e., a target. The huge charge bonus and relatively nominal melee attack accounts for this.

The lance is utterly useless once the enemy gets inside the point, and sidling up close to a stationary cavalryman, especially if he is distracted by someone (else) trying to kill him, would be as "easy" as hand-to-hand combat could ever get. Further, a lance is far less effective when it is backed only by the strength of the rider's arm(s), and not by 1000+ lbs. of charging man and horse. A secondary weapon will fare better, but not much, as the cavalryman is still a "target" sooner or later.

The scheme encourages the player to employ melee cavalry as they were employed in this period of history: running down light infantry and routers, chasing off skirmish/archer cavalry, and executing a series of relatively short, sharp charges calculated to maximize momentum and shock value - into the flanks and rear of enemy formations - instead of just forming up and piling into the enemy en masse.

[mcantu]

I have a feeling that the high charge stats are left over from when EB was for RTW 1.2 (which didnt apply the charge bonus properly)

[Foot]

I have a feeling that the high charge stats are left over from when EB was for RTW 1.2 (which didnt apply the charge bonus properly)

No its not. I believe that the heaviest cataphracts have a charge of 35-40. I'm no stat guy, but i do know that the charge stats were definately updated.

Foot

[econ21]

The charge stats do look enormous, but on the otherhand the cavalry "feel" good to me. My Romans have a decent but not over powered punch on the charge. It contrasts favourably with say Goth mod for BI where heavy cavalry often can eliminate an entire heavy foot unit within seconds of a rear charge. I haven't seen that in EB so far. Then again, I haven't met those 35-40 charge stat katas yet either.

[Watchman]

In my current AS campaign I'm about to fight two units of those Pahlava bodyguard terminators for the first time - with two units of horse-archers, one Nizag Gung, one Pantodapoi Phalanx, random foot missile troops and one unit of plain Hetairoi bodyguards that either one of the Pahlav monsters outnumbers almost two to one by its lonesome...

Ought to get... interesting.

[Arkatreides]

Ah, thanks for the reply, that definitely makes things clearer.

The other question I have is that some of the cavalry are listed as being AP ("effective agaist armour"). Does that apply to the charge as well or just the normal attack?

[Axelus]

And what determines when the cavalry will use it's secondary weapon?
Can you force the cavalry switch to secondary weapon?

[mcantu]

And what determines when the cavalry will use it's secondary weapon?
Can you force the cavalry switch to secondary weapon?

I "Alt-Right Click" a few seconds after the charge to get them to switch to swords...

[Watchman]

The other question I have is that some of the cavalry are listed as being AP ("effective agaist armour"). Does that apply to the charge as well or just the normal attack?

Of course it works all the time. Why would cavalry be any different from infantry in this regard ?

[Arkatreides]

Of course it works all the time. Why would cavalry be any different from infantry in this regard ?

Well, my question was in general tbh - I didn't know what is was like for infantry either.

[Watchman]

It'd be mighty strange indeed if it only worked in one situation and not the other. The attack delivered on charge is just the normal melee attack with the charge bonus on top of it, after all. And I've lost and killed enough heavily armoured bodyguard cavalry to/with various light dudes with the AP ability to be willing to claim the AP ability most definitely works for all the normal melee attacks...

[Ancyrean]

Noob question: A charge takes place when you single-right-click on a target, is that correct? Or does double-right-clicking and making them run straight into the enemy do as well?

[JeffBag]

Units auto charge upon when they are close enough, and formed up properly.

[Ancyrean]

Thanks JeffBag

So I figure a unit is formed up properly when facing the enemy and in keeping its formation.

[Arkatreides]

Noob question: A charge takes place when you single-right-click on a target, is that correct? Or does double-right-clicking and making them run straight into the enemy do as well?

I am fairly sure double clicking also works.

At least it is a hell of a lot easier to get a charge going than it is in MTW2

[NeoSpartan]

Do all Cavarly units have a 2ndary weapon????? I haven't seen my Gaellic cavalry pull a sword or a knife out in a melee fight.

[Watchman]

RTW units can have a maximum of two weapons, period. The Celtic light cavalry for example have javelins and an underhand cavalry spear for melee. Conversely the Brihentin and their ilk (Lavotuxri, Remi Mairepos) have an underhand cavalry spear and a longsword.

So, for melee the Celtic lights are stuck with their spears (their secondary weapon) while the heavies can switch to the longswords (their secondary weapon).

[mcantu]

Noob question: A charge takes place when you single-right-click on a target, is that correct? Or does double-right-clicking and making them run straight into the enemy do as well?

Start the cav unit a good distance away and 'single right-click' on the enemy unit. If they start running right away youre too close. You want them to walk a little in order to form up properly. When they get to the right distance, they'll lower their lances and start the charge. You will only get the charge bonus if you see them lower their lances before they hit the enemy unit. If you know they are far enough away, you can 'double right-click' instead.

[mcantu]

This was posted in the RTRPE forums but since they and EB are both for RTW 1.5, it all applies...

HEAR YE! HEAR YE!

I got Darth BI (in which lancers are crucial for everyone), and went into custom battles and didn't come out until I figured out for myself what the hell is going on with lancers. I can now rout Equites Clibinarii (super-elite, mace, no lance) using cheap Berber lancers, even when outnumbered.

In order to get the charge bonus, the unit MUST be:

- Completely reformed
- Completely stationary
- Properly aligned
- Outside the minimum charge distance

Some tips:

- > Use SHIFT to put the attack in a command sequence and ensure the charge will begin from a stationary, complete formation.
- > Always SINGLE-CLICK to ensure the unit will stay in formation, and take its time to realign.
- > Start WELL BEYOND the necessary charge distance, so that the unit will have time to realign well enough to suit the game engine. The wider the formation, the more time and space it will need to realign.
- > If you need the charge to happen sooner rather than later, you can start nearer, but you must sacrifice shock value by using a narrower, deeper formation. As you make more charges throughout the battle, be aware that a closer enemy unit may have a greater degree of lateral motion with repsect to your cavalry. Pay attention to the red arrow when dragging out the formation, and again, remember to use SHIFT.
- > It is often effective to charge the most distant enemy unit. A charging cavalryman will strike any other intervening enemy with full force. In this way it is often possible to charge enemies right in front of you.
- > Once a lancer has lowered his lance, he will not raise it again until he finds someone to stick it in. (The only exception is that the charge will be canceled if the targeted enemy routs). It does not matter how many friendly units the cavalry formation must filter through before reaching an enemy. This doesn't mean that you can pile shock cavalry on top of one another, willy-nilly (because when things get crowded enough, the charging man in the back will likely have to wait for his friend up front to DIE), but it is viable to put your cavalry way behind your main force to give them room.

Darth has gotten a pretty good grip on this, it seems, and is currently toiling away on AI formations that will adjust deployment breadth according to the current function - mobility, defense, or shock. I am really excited to see what he comes up with, and am in high hopes that Darth Formations 14 and RTR 7 will achieve an effective synergy.

http://forums.totalrealism.net/showthread.php?t=1569