The Swiss Cheese Experiment: No More Swordsmen Wannabes

[dopp]

The musketeers are mingled directly inside the pike formation, where they proceed to shoot the enemy protected by the pikes. Same with halberds and 2-handers. It's actually a form of exploit. This sort of double-stacking is popular in M2TW since unlike the original game there are no morale penalties for intermingled units. Other popular combinations include double-stacked spear or pike units, light and heavy cavalry charging as one unit, and melee troops stacked on top of missile troops to protect them from charges. Since pikemen are pretty lame in melee itself, you're counting on their spear wall killing enough of the chargers that the pikemen will win the following swordplay anyway.

Friendly fire from missile troops has been improved considerably since RTW (not including cannon and such, which are still pretty brainless). In fact, it may have swung a little too far in the opposite direction. Your entire line musketeers will not fire if even one of them stands a chance of hitting a friendly.

Meh, if pikemen require muskets to be effective AT ALL, then those poor Swiss and Flemish pikemen must have been real idiots to have fought that way without an effective corps of gunners. If all it took to defeat a pike formation was a bunch of guys with swords attacking frontally, then their French and German knightly enemies must have been rather stupid as well not to have simply dismounted and charged them on foot. Gamewise, you might as well give muskets the defensive stakes ability and save the production cost of making so many cool-looking pikemen (each pikemen has to have at least 3 models due to armor upgrades in M2TW). Not to mention my initial problem was not so much the effectiveness of pikemen per se, but the fact that they didn't fight with pikes more often.

I think that to balance out the increased formation-keeping of the sword confiscation, the pikemen attack speed needs to be lowered some to keep it in line with other units as right now they have a turbo-attack only slightly slower than that of JHI. When you add 2 ranks, long reach and an attack strength greater than swordsmen for the best pikes, they will chew up enemies very quickly. They're actually faster than halberds, which are in turn much faster than swords. Tweaking the skeletal compensation factor down to 0.73 might do the trick.

[Musashi]

I find I can put my musketeers (Or crossbowmen even) directly behind my line troops and they'll fire through them easily without hurting any. Unless I do something idiotic like deploying my spear uphill from the muskets, it's never an issue.

[dopp]

I tried that, but when the enemy get within a certain distance they stop firing. The firing arc allows them to clear the pikemen's heads only at maximum range. A little slope will alleviate much of the difficulty. Against fast, hard-charging armies I always put my muskets behind the pikes on a slope.

[Musashi]

Yeah but it's easy to find a slope to deploy on.

[Marshal Murat]

I can't find the FILE!?

[Revenant]

Dopp: Are you still working on pikemen and the way they interact with other units? I like your changes, but they are now very powerful if controlled by me and somewhat pathetic if controlled by AI, exactly as you posted before.

I share your opinion on their real world abilities, but I think the other late era infantry units should have their uses too.

[Carl]

@ Reverant, the other late era units do have a purpose, to be beaten by Pikes.

No seriously. The ENTIRE POINT of pike units is that they are unbeatable from the front. You need to pin them in place and then hit them from the flanks. Do that and they simply disintigrate. Even a couple of peseant unit in the rear will do a LOT of damage.

Also, Pikes (along with bugged bill units), seem to have been priced acording to their bugged stats, not their unbugged ones. Most Fixed Bill and Pike units are worth 800-1000+ Florins but are a half to a thirn of that in reality.

I do understand what you saying, the AI is REALLY BAD at pulling off flank charges, but if it was any good at it it would easilly decimate pure pikemen infantry forces. Against a competent opponnent you HAVE to have decent Flank Guards and some medium cav to keep the enemy off your flanks/rear.

[Revenant]

I do understand what you saying, the AI is REALLY BAD at pulling off flank charges, but if it was any good at it it would easilly decimate pure pikemen infantry forces. Against a competent opponnent you HAVE to have decent Flank Guards and some medium cav to keep the enemy off your flanks/rear.

Not only that, but AI controlled pike units perform bad even when confronted from front. They just walk into my unit and are teared apart. If there was any mean to remove permanent AI Guard mode on on them, this is probably the culprit....

[Carl]

Yeah, Pikemen are pretty bad if they are in Guard Mode. You need em out of it for them to do any good and i have no idea how to keep them out of it when the AI is in control. I'm sure somone can figure it out though.

[Revenant]

Yeah, Pikemen are pretty bad if they are in Guard Mode. You need em out of it for them to do any good and i have no idea how to keep them out of it when the AI is in control. I'm sure somone can figure it out though.

And that is problem with halberdiers too (not JHI, they are not allowed spearwall formation and so they are not in guard mode).

And another thing is with pikemen massively underrated for autocalc.

[Carl]

Yeah, I noticed that too, I don't think Auto-Calc takes weapons attributes or Unit rules into account, just attack, defence, charge into account. Which is also why cav are so much better in reality than in auto-calc. allthough the sheild fix nueturs them a lot, especially HA who don't have the charge value to really threaten low level spears or good sheild infantry.

[pike master]

by the comments about costs i am almost certian they intended pikes to be pretty much worthless but why they would do this i do not know except to give other infantry units in the game the ability to take them down which is not historically accurate.

as far as the militia halberdiers go i cant figure out how they could even be worth 300 i havnt had much luck with them even with partial plate.

and like the bill units being cheap it kinda sounds suspicious to me but im a conspiracy paranoid freak so just ignore me. but i do think the people they consulted for military historical accuracy were not as competent as the ones they used for mtw1 and rome.

apparently those specialists didnt seem to think that pikes and bills were not anything special compared to dagger wielding archers and pitchfork packing berzerker peasants.

i would like to see the bill units equipped with full sized war bills like one i saw at a military museum that was 8 feet long with a two foot blade instead of those puny garden bills.

[Zenicetus]

by the comments about costs i am almost certian they intended pikes to be pretty much worthless but why they would do this i do not know except to give other infantry units in the game the ability to take them down which is not historically accurate.

Are people complaining about pikes based on 1 v. 1 unit tests in abstract custom battles, or in full campaigns where they're part of a mixed army? In my Spanish campaign I used pikes in combination with musketeers; as I think they're supposed to be used, yes? And that combination was deadly.

[Revenant]

Are people complaining about pikes based on 1 v. 1 unit tests in abstract custom battles, or in full campaigns where they're part of a mixed army? In my Spanish campaign I used pikes in combination with musketeers; as I think they're supposed to be used, yes? And that combination was deadly.

I tried them mostly in custom battles, some 1 vs. 1 , but others were complete combined armies. And AI just cannot handle them, try it yourself. AI´s pikes or spearwall halberds just wade into my lines and are slaughtered. I agree that pikes in my hands can perform admirably. (considering their price) even without Dopp´s modification.

[Carl]

by the comments about costs i am almost certian they intended pikes to be pretty much worthless but why they would do this i do not know except to give other infantry units in the game the ability to take them down which is not historically accurate.

AND

and like the bill units being cheap it kinda sounds suspicious to me but im a conspiracy paranoid freak so just ignore me.

Nope your not paranoid or anything. As I said, everything in the game was priced according to how it performed with the various bugs in place. Just take a look at DGK with and without all the bug fixes in place. They aren’t quite worth their price with no fixes, but they perform well for what you pay. Put the fixes in place and their is almost nothing that isn't a third the price that they CAN beat. They aren’t the only ones. If you apply the 2-Hander fix but not the shield fix, the bugged 2-Handers are totally OTT against everything. Apply the Shield Fix and it actually looks normal again.

Fixed Billmen actually fight inline with their stats, which are incredibly high for their price. Likewise, they are late era infantry, (as are almost all pikes), late era infantry elsewhere is MUCH more expensive than Bill and Pike units. So it's hardly surprising that working units of this type are massively under priced. They are meant to be equivalent to these late era expensive units elsewhere.

Are people complaining about pikes based on 1 v. 1 unit tests in abstract custom battles, or in full campaigns where they're part of a mixed army? In my Spanish campaign I used pikes in combination with musketeers; as I think they're supposed to be used, yes? And that combination was deadly.

People are complaining on both. If you re-read Dopps first post in this thread, (i.e. the very first post in this thread), you'd understand what the problem is. Pikes won't stop all individuals in a charging infantry unit, some will get past the pikes on the charge, these then attack the pikes at close quarters, and this makes the pikes switch to swords, at which point they get massacred. They do seem to work for some people, but I often suspect that’s down to a combination of the quality of the Pikemen they are using. In these situations, switching to swords isn't quite as detrimental if the shield fix hasn't been applied as the defence and attack values are about the same as bugged shield units. With the fact that the bugged Shields make the units with them perform below their stats it's hardly surprising that good Pikemen can do OK in those situations. The other situation I’ve heard mentioned where they seem to do well is Pike and Musket combos, especially with intermingling.

These probably do well, (I’m not sure though), because the Muskets can cut down half the enemy infantry before they get close, which reduces the likelihood of anyone getting past the pikes, (those that get stopped as they charge in are the ones the Pikemen actually attack BTW), this means they don' switch to sword and once the few that do get through die you get a performance similar to fixed Pikemen. If the enemy outnumbers your army or you can't wipe half of him out before CC though, your in trouble because you can guarantee that they will switch to swords. Also human opponents could just double click behind a pike unit and force their way between the pikes, thus forcing them to turn swordsmen.

The result is that it's very hard to stop them turning into swordsmen and getting massacred. With the shield bug unfixed and high quality Pikemen, you can win with pikes in a sword fight. But your in for a world of hurt no matter what. What’s also instructive here is that your Pikemen aren’t actually fighting as Pikemen, but as swordsmen, which begs the question of why they have pikes at all.

[Revenant]

@Carl: I Read all thread indeed:) And I agree with Dopp´s opinions on how the pikemen formations should perform in real world.

But there is question how they are supposed to work in the game. A lots of people want paper/scissor/rock mechanism here.
I personally like pure historical approach, but that is only my opinion.

So the main issue with pikes/spearwall halberds for me, is their inability to be functional under AI. If they are supposed to be only excellent cavalry deterrent, i can live with it. If they will patch them to be the ultimate line infantry good vs. anything, I will like it, if they will be priced accordingly.

But If AI cannot handle them, there is not fun for me, no matter how am I able to handle them myself...

[Jambo]

Just a thought, but couldn't one just simply increase the mass of pike units?

If I recall correctly pikemen are around a mass of 1.0, with some of the more elite pike units around 1.2. If this value was significantly increased wouldn't this prevent their formations from being so easily disrupted??

[Carl]

It's not formation disruption thats the problem. it's enemy uinits getting past the pikes. So long as they have a sword they pull it out and use it if that happens.

But If AI cannot handle them, there is not fun for me, no matter how am I able to handle them myself...

Thats fine, i think I might look into this actually as I have an idea on getting them out of Guard Mode at the start.

[Jambo]

There is a command in the EDU for disabling skirmish ("start_not_skirmishing"), so presumably there's hopefully one for disabling guard mode? Possibly "start_not_guard" or "start_not_guardmode" or "start_not_guard _mode"??

[Revenant]

There is a command in the EDU for disabling skirmish ("start_not_skirmishing"), so presumably there's hopefully one for disabling guard mode? Possibly "start_not_guard" or "start_not_guardmode" or "start_not_guard _mode"??

It would be nice solution. I tried some commands, but to no effect. Maybe somebody else would have more luck.

[pike master]

you must understand that when units get past the spear wall they turn to swords is not exactly as it should be expected. if a swordsmen or two make it through a shield wall it would be expected for a few pikemen to turn to swords to stop them but not the whole formation, which is the problem that they are all turning to swords and even do so even if the enemy hasnt even made it through the spearwall. take note that these things do not happen everytime but they happen enough that you have to babysit them.

also if all units kept using their pikes even for the brave superhuman fanatics who manage to duck and dodge their way through the pikes to close you have to remember the rest of his unit is getting butchered who never made through so he looks back and sees his unit fleeing and of course even if he keeps fighting the slow advance of the pike formation will just walk over top of him and crush him under a host of feet.

so really even if a few units make it through and have their way the rest of the soldiers in the formation are still having a hard time if the spearwall works properly and is demonstrated in dopps fix where they have no close in defence but if they stick to pikes they can still win despite a handful of enemy soldiers making it though the spearwall.

however i still think the cheapness of the units is an indicator of what ca expected of their performance which is contrary to the way they are represented in mtw1 and rome. if they are to be used as musket support then they should be allowed to spread formation with spearwall so they can be more easily integratedwith missile units instead of masking some of their fire and on occasion muskets and arqs seem to slowly move back as they rotate ranks to fire which eventually carries them behind the pike was so if they are spread this wont be as much of a problem.

under the system i use i have solved the issuewithout a mod but it shouldnt have had to come to that. in rome they had it perfected because lesser pike and hoplite formations could be compromised by roman legionares while the more elite formation held together better. this goes the same with schiltroms in barbarian invasion who were actually a force to be reckoned with unlike in this game so it seems in some ways ca has actually taken a step backwards.

i often times used pikemen in rome in spread formation with phalanx formation on to act as a base from which my archers could safely fire from.

[Carl]

however i still think the cheapness of the units is an indicator of what ca expected of their performance which is contrary to the way they are represented in mtw1 and rome.

I personally think the price is down to how ineffective they are, not how they should perform in CA's eyes. i.e. they where priced according to their effectiveness. Look at unbugged/fixed units that come along at the same time, they are ALL more powerful and more expensive than pikes. Since in some factions the Pikes are the ONLY infantry unit that late in the game, it's not as if theirs any good reason for them not to be as good. Also, fixed Sword and Shield units can really hurt Fixed Pikes as they can force their way into the formation. They still suffer losses, and the late Scottish Pikes still beat anything you throw at them. But that’s Ok really IMHO.

[Goofball]

Okay, I've read the entire thread and would like to implement dopp's fix. But which units need it? Obviously, any unit with the word "pike" in its title will need it, but are there any other units that are pike armed? What about billmen, are they using pikes or halberds?

Which brings me to another question. I have installed the 2-handed fix. Does this fix halberds (for that matter, were halberds ever broken to begin with?)?

I'm so confused...

[Carl]

Halberds wern't broken. It's the Halberd animation thats normally used to fix the bugged 2-Hander. if the unit has a Pike it will have a Primiary Weapon with the words "Long_Pike" in it's attribute section. You need to remove the secondory weapon by copying the secondery weapon of Fuedal knights in over the top of the Pike armed units.

Just don't do this to Voulgiers, Voulgier militia, Swiss Guard or Obouthours. They have the Long_Pike attribute but are special cases.

[Goofball]

Halberds wern't broken. It's the Halberd animation thats normally used to fix the bugged 2-Hander. if the unit has a Pike it will have a Primiary Weapon with the words "Long_Pike" in it's attribute section. You need to remove the secondory weapon by copying the secondery weapon of Fuedal knights in over the top of the Pike armed units.

Just don't do this to Voulgiers, Voulgier militia, Swiss Guard or Obouthours. They have the Long_Pike attribute but are special cases.

Thanks Carl. And I don't know if it has been said before, but thanks for just about all of your posts in the Citadel. You have been very helpful.

[Carl]

And I don't know if it has been said before, but thanks for just about all of your posts in the Citadel. You have been very helpful.

I doubt it considering how hot headed I can be, especially when debating with Musashi. The thanks is appreciated and i'm glad that I seem to have been helpful as well as hot headed, so your welcome.

[Musashi]

I doubt it considering how hot headed I can be, especially when debating with Musashi.

That's ok Carl, I'm used to you from over on the Relic boards ;)

[Carl]

ROFLOL, whats your username over on their anyway then?

p.s. I still should try to calm down a bit, though. I just don't seemt o do calm very well tough.

[Musashi]

I'm Paladin hehe ;)

[Carl]

LOL. Thought you seemed familiar.