Results 1 to 30 of 149

Thread: The Swiss Cheese Experiment: No More Swordsmen Wannabes

Threaded View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #29
    Confiscator of Swords Member dopp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    702

    Default Re: The Swiss Cheese Experiment: No More Swordsmen Wannabes

    The reverse formation bug is not one easily fixed and will possibly require changes to the actual code. That's CA's department, not mine. It's caused in part by attacking infantry/cavalry penetrating the formation too deeply on the first charge. Only fix is to play on huge unit sizes so the formation is dense enough to withstand the enemy, or to increase the collision mass and discipline of the pikemen.

    Pikemen in M2TW were always hideously devastating *when they poke with their pikes*, which is what prompted me to try out this fix. They just weren't poking enough. I initially accepted the rationale that they were there only to support the musketeers (although I didn't agree with it), but I got so tired of seeing their miserable swordplay. The results encouraged me to keep this fix. It's not a perfect fix and may make them too powerful, but at least they poke things and I can see some real 'push of pike' here.

    I'm not entirely sure that they will ever be as powerful as phalanxes in Rome, even by taking away their swords (and thus their vulnerability to close quarter fighting). Their spear wall is much less powerful and doesn't stop attackers from breaking into their formation on the charge. The charge even kills as many pikemen as attackers (especially if the attackers are swordsmen, might be better *not* to brace against them). Their stats are hopelessly inferior to hoplites; lacking shields, good armor (armor upgrades are BORKED, I tell you) and high defense skill. Even their attack and charge is 50% lower on average. When ordered to attack they walk confusedly into the enemy and get hacked down (this is definitely a bug, although there are workarounds).

    General observations: with this fix in place pikemen will attempt to maintain formation at all times and will poke with their pikes, instead of deciding to be swordsmen the moment they find themselves a little out of position. Pikemen stranded a little ahead of the main line will get their act together and fall back into line instead of showing off their swordplay. The wall of stabbing spears is incredibly lethal to anything approaching from the front. This was true even before I tried this fix when I managed to get my pikes to work properly (took a bit of luck; half the time they still drew swords for no discernable reason); they demolished frontal assaults with ease. Nothing but another pike formation can withstand the wall of points, and even then it's mutually assured destruction.

    Attacked from the flank or rear individual pikemen will turn and poke at the enemy, but the formation still remains weak to flanking, as the original design intended. The lethality of the pike formation comes from the wall of points to the front; individual pikemen fending off flankers are much more vulnerable, even if they are using their pikes rather than swords. I personally have an issue with this (square formation, anyone?) but it's not something I will lose sleep over. It doesn't look too bad as the animation set forces a certain distance between the attacker and pikeman, so clipping is kept to a minimum. It looks awesome when the pikemen are surrounded and they start this 'last stand' thing with pikes facing in all directions. I'll post some screenies if I can figure out how.

    Edit: See my "heavy infantry" post above. Even if they are "working completely as intended" (which I seriously doubt, they do seem a little bugged) and are supposed to behave that way against swordsmen, I will probably still mod them to poke people. Pikemen are classified as heavy infantry, they were the ultimate form of heavy infantry, they should be able to stand up to heavy infantry. If CA wants pikemen as specialized anti-cav and useless at anything else (this is not known for sure), I feel myself free to disagree with their unit balance and mod it to my satisfaction.
    Last edited by dopp; 12-22-2006 at 03:39.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO