The Swiss Cheese Experiment: No More Swordsmen Wannabes

[General Zhukov]

Interesting topic. Great forums too.

Was it the issue that pikemen were performing poorly that prompted the mod, or was it an ascetic desire to see more stabbing animations that coincidentally led to improved performance of the troops?

I don't have much experience using pikes in actual campaign battles, but as to performance, in some combat tests my Portugese pike militia fared well against French Lancers and decently against HRE Dismounted Feudal Knights.

Spread in long 2-rank line, the pikeman killed ~20 lancers on contact, with maybe 10-15 casualties. In the ensuing melee, sometimes all the pikemen would draw swords, and sometimes those in the rear would continue to stab forward while others drew swords. In any event, about half the time this lowly 150 florin unit would run the lancers off the field. The key, I think, is to have lines thin enough and wide enough so that all pikes are down, and crucially, so that the enemy cavalry is not able to wrap around and encircle following the initial crash.

Following this, I stacked up my trusty Portugese pikes against a unit of HRE DFKs. The 3-rank deep spear wall seemed to break the knights' charge momentum, causing a general melee to ensue. In each trial, the knights were reduced to ~20 men before my militia broke and ran. Portugese pike militia, at least, seem to be rather competent swordsmen and efficient at attriting enemies coming at them from the front. These results imply that pike formations could have some utility in area-denial and delaying tactics.

Personally, I would have expected the "melee experts" DFKs to mop the floor with these troops, but it seems like the act of drawing swords is what allows them to be competitive at all.

[Headlocked]

Boody hell, just noticed that "presenting-bum-to-the-enemy-and-trying-to-sit-on-his-sword" bug.

its simply hilarious.
5 mins into the combat, no matter what orders, and even if none are given, the pikemen perform the exact above manuever. The only thing they dont do is bend over.
My god.
That is easily the worst bug/glitch ive seen so far. Not even the 2-hander one comes as daft as this.

Anyone have any fixes ont his?

[Spark]

Interesting topic. Great forums too.

Was it the issue that pikemen were performing poorly that prompted the mod, or was it an ascetic desire to see more stabbing animations that coincidentally led to improved performance of the troops?

I don't have much experience using pikes in actual campaign battles, but as to performance, in some combat tests my Portugese pike militia fared well against French Lancers and decently against HRE Dismounted Feudal Knights.

Spread in long 2-rank line, the pikeman killed ~20 lancers on contact, with maybe 10-15 casualties. In the ensuing melee, sometimes all the pikemen would draw swords, and sometimes those in the rear would continue to stab forward while others drew swords. In any event, about half the time this lowly 150 florin unit would run the lancers off the field. The key, I think, is to have lines thin enough and wide enough so that all pikes are down, and crucially, so that the enemy cavalry is not able to wrap around and encircle following the initial crash.

Following this, I stacked up my trusty Portugese pikes against a unit of HRE DFKs. The 3-rank deep spear wall seemed to break the knights' charge momentum, causing a general melee to ensue. In each trial, the knights were reduced to ~20 men before my militia broke and ran. Portugese pike militia, at least, seem to be rather competent swordsmen and efficient at attriting enemies coming at them from the front. These results imply that pike formations could have some utility in area-denial and delaying tactics.

Personally, I would have expected the "melee experts" DFKs to mop the floor with these troops, but it seems like the act of drawing swords is what allows them to be competitive at all.

Realistically speaking, and as was the case in RTW, a wall of pikes should easily be able to hold off and push enemy infantry, with few losses for the pikemen and huge losses for the attacking infantry. In M2TW, pikemen can hold off cavalry but almost immediately break out of formation versus heavy infantry, which is why people see them as performing poorly. It's a matter of balance vs. realism, it would be realistic but not too balanced if you could form an impenetrable wall of pikes. They get somewhat balanced by musketeers and cannon late-game, but that's a long way into the game and you'd almost definitely want pikemen to make up a large part of your pre-gunpowder army if they were as powerful as in RTW.

[General Zhukov]

Realistically speaking, and as was the case in RTW, a wall of pikes should easily be able to hold off and push enemy infantry, with few losses for the pikemen and huge losses for the attacking infantry.

I didn't have the privilege of playing RTW, but it really does seem like some of the phalanx tactics employed in the earlier eras would be comically easy to counter. Take for example a bunched unit of M2TW pikemen stranded on the battlefield versus a unit of dismounted knights. The "phalanx"'s strength comes from its incredible forward-facing firepower, which is maintained by its tight, rigid formation and discipline. Those strengths become liabilities when faced either with missle fire, or with flexible melee forces that have the capacity and tools to hit the formation on any of its 3 soft underbellies. Mentioned dismounted knights would just divide and envelop the phalanx. If the spearmen tried to manuever to counter the flankers, its formation would break up, causing the unit to lose its great advantage. It could be that CA's implementation of this "react to me or die" reality takes the form of the pikemen drawing swords to meet the foe on equal (or, since heavy infantry is heavily armored, unequal) footing.

[Zenicetus]

Realistically speaking, and as was the case in RTW, a wall of pikes should easily be able to hold off and push enemy infantry, with few losses for the pikemen and huge losses for the attacking infantry. In M2TW, pikemen can hold off cavalry but almost immediately break out of formation versus heavy infantry, which is why people see them as performing poorly. It's a matter of balance vs. realism, it would be realistic but not too balanced if you could form an impenetrable wall of pikes. They get somewhat balanced by musketeers and cannon late-game, but that's a long way into the game and you'd almost definitely want pikemen to make up a large part of your pre-gunpowder army if they were as powerful as in RTW.

Right, I think that's what CA intended with the game design. Pikemen lack armor, or the shields of classical hoplite units. And so even with the pointy sticks they're a poor choice one-on-one against a unit of dismounted knights, without support. They're designed for the late period, when you have armor-piercing gunpowder units in support.

Heavily armored enemy soldiers (mounted or foot) never get very far into my Tercio pikemen's front line, before they're shredded at close range with musket balls. Maybe that's why I've never noticed this problem with dropping pikes and using swords. But they gotta work together with the muskets. Crossbows and archers aren't that effective against heavily armored units before the gunpowder era, so my front line has to be something heavier like dismounted knights. I never build pikes as early as they're available.... I wait for the guns to back them up.

[dopp]

The reverse formation bug is not one easily fixed and will possibly require changes to the actual code. That's CA's department, not mine. It's caused in part by attacking infantry/cavalry penetrating the formation too deeply on the first charge. Only fix is to play on huge unit sizes so the formation is dense enough to withstand the enemy, or to increase the collision mass and discipline of the pikemen.

Pikemen in M2TW were always hideously devastating *when they poke with their pikes*, which is what prompted me to try out this fix. They just weren't poking enough. I initially accepted the rationale that they were there only to support the musketeers (although I didn't agree with it), but I got so tired of seeing their miserable swordplay. The results encouraged me to keep this fix. It's not a perfect fix and may make them too powerful, but at least they poke things and I can see some real 'push of pike' here.

I'm not entirely sure that they will ever be as powerful as phalanxes in Rome, even by taking away their swords (and thus their vulnerability to close quarter fighting). Their spear wall is much less powerful and doesn't stop attackers from breaking into their formation on the charge. The charge even kills as many pikemen as attackers (especially if the attackers are swordsmen, might be better *not* to brace against them). Their stats are hopelessly inferior to hoplites; lacking shields, good armor (armor upgrades are BORKED, I tell you) and high defense skill. Even their attack and charge is 50% lower on average. When ordered to attack they walk confusedly into the enemy and get hacked down (this is definitely a bug, although there are workarounds).

General observations: with this fix in place pikemen will attempt to maintain formation at all times and will poke with their pikes, instead of deciding to be swordsmen the moment they find themselves a little out of position. Pikemen stranded a little ahead of the main line will get their act together and fall back into line instead of showing off their swordplay. The wall of stabbing spears is incredibly lethal to anything approaching from the front. This was true even before I tried this fix when I managed to get my pikes to work properly (took a bit of luck; half the time they still drew swords for no discernable reason); they demolished frontal assaults with ease. Nothing but another pike formation can withstand the wall of points, and even then it's mutually assured destruction.

Attacked from the flank or rear individual pikemen will turn and poke at the enemy, but the formation still remains weak to flanking, as the original design intended. The lethality of the pike formation comes from the wall of points to the front; individual pikemen fending off flankers are much more vulnerable, even if they are using their pikes rather than swords. I personally have an issue with this (square formation, anyone?) but it's not something I will lose sleep over. It doesn't look too bad as the animation set forces a certain distance between the attacker and pikeman, so clipping is kept to a minimum. It looks awesome when the pikemen are surrounded and they start this 'last stand' thing with pikes facing in all directions. I'll post some screenies if I can figure out how.

Edit: See my "heavy infantry" post above. Even if they are "working completely as intended" (which I seriously doubt, they do seem a little bugged) and are supposed to behave that way against swordsmen, I will probably still mod them to poke people. Pikemen are classified as heavy infantry, they were the ultimate form of heavy infantry, they should be able to stand up to heavy infantry. If CA wants pikemen as specialized anti-cav and useless at anything else (this is not known for sure), I feel myself free to disagree with their unit balance and mod it to my satisfaction.

[Whacker]

It looks awesome when the pikemen are surrounded and they start this 'last stand' thing with pikes facing in all directions. I'll post some screenies if I can figure out how.

Give them the schiltron formation option? I'm on a different PC so I can't try it out. Sounds like an interesting idea though.

[dopp]

Give them the schiltron formation option? I'm on a different PC so I can't try it out. Sounds like an interesting idea though.

Nono, they do this already with my 'fix' in place. Pikeman stabbing in all directions, isolated stragglers hurrying back to their fellows, heaps of dead... good stuff. Doesn't help them much, of course, since their formation is completely gone.

[Whacker]

Nono, they do this already with my 'fix' in place. Pikeman stabbing in all directions, isolated stragglers hurrying back to their fellows, heaps of dead... good stuff. Doesn't help them much, of course, since their formation is completely gone.

OK now I follow. I never had the "last stand" formation happen because with your fix in place, the pikes are so damn powerful that they rarely ever lose more than 1/3 of their number in melee. I had them go up against 2 units of DCK's and they ripped em to shreds. HAs still give them a decent beating though, but when you run out of ammo the best thing is to just flee, because any kind of charge period with even a few of them remaining is suicidal. Still think it'd be an interesting idea to give them schiltron to see what happens.

[dopp]

Actually, pikemen are now much *too* powerful from the front, but it's hard to say whether vanilla settings were working as intended either with all that sword nonsense. Ah well, at least they use their pikes more, and they can actually attack the enemy somewhat, rather than just being a roadblock. I'd settle for uber RTW hedgehogs of death over wannabe swordsmen any day.

Some testing reveals that properly braced pikemen are now almost completely invincible from the front. In fact, testing reveals that pikemen are now invincible from the front, regardless of whether they are braced or not (they can still get demolished by a good cavalry charge if they are stupid enough not to brace). I can't link images here for some reason, so I can't illustrate my points with screenies. They are still very weak from the rear and sides, but no more so than before. They don't seem to have any more difficulty poking at flankers with pikes rather than swords, but of course are total trash either way.

On vanilla settings:

With guard mode on, the pikemen brace and receive the charge. Many of them will die if the attackers are swordsmen. The pikemen stab once or twice, killing those attackers who make it past the first rank of pikes, then freeze in position. Only the occasional stab is made after that. The attackers are then unable to close with the pikemen and a staring contest begins, except on the flanks where the swordsmen are happily butchering the hapless wannabes who have drawn their own swords. This happens about 50% of the time, depending on how motivated the pikemen are feeling that day (they hate their job, remember?).

The other 50% of the time, large numbers of swordsmen will penetrate the formation in the intial charge. The pikemen draw swords and the formation collapses. Even if they kill their immediate targets, the pikemen will continue to fight as swordsmen from then on.

Switching off guard mode, or ordering the pikemen to advance to the attack, the front rank pikemen will attempt to march through the enemy ranks and get butchered. It's like their attack distance is not taking the reach of the pike into account. Those pikemen who survive will naturally switch to swords since they are now intermingled with the enemy. The rear rankers, on the other hand, start poking at the correct distance, but eventually give it up and switch over to swords too.

Using "no swords for you" fix/tweak/cheat:

With guard mode on, the pikemen brace and receive the charge. Many of them will die if the attackers are swordsmen. The pikemen stab once or twice, killing those attackers who make it past the first rank of pikes, then freeze in position. Only the occasional stab is made after that. The attackers are then unable to close with the pikemen and a staring contest begins, except on the flanks where the swordsmen are happily butchering the hapless wannabes who are poking back with their pikes (it's still a massacre on the flanks). This happens about 50% of the time.

The other 50% of the time, large numbers of swordsmen will penetrate the formation in the intial charge. The pikemen then proceed to slaughter the fools, constantly trying to maintain formation. Once all the swordsmen that have penetrated the formation are dead, the pikemen freeze up and hold the rest at bay in a staring contest.

Switching off guard mode, or ordering the pikemen to advance to the attack, the entire formation will start pushing with their pikes. Individual retards will still try to march past the enemy, but will usually realize their mistake and fall back into formation. Enemy is completely slaughtered with few pikemen deaths.

Never tried to charge with them, or put them on walls. Will try and see what happens.

[Whacker]

I'll check this tomorrow, but I'm going on vacation for a week or more so won't be much use until Jan. If you get this in time, give me some exact matchups between specific units and I'll do the same. I always play on huge unit sizes, medium most of the time, on that grassy flat map to even stuff out. I say we do huge (if your box can handle that, mine seems ok...), medium diff, grassy map with no weather to eliminate as many variables as possible. Open to other options. Also be sure and post unit stats if you "fix" the pikes so I can use the same thing.

[Cheetah]

If you got them, mixing in Hand Gunners works awesome too. I just fought a battle using Handgunners/Pike Milita and was astonished to see what happened. The infantry/knights got stopped just inches away from the hand gunners by the pikes, and then the hand gunners all fired point blank into the enemy. Mass rout ensues. Awesome.

Nice.

[Jagger]

The reality is that pikes replaced everyone at a certain point. The Swiss with their offensive pikes were the supreme infantry. Pikes were supplemented but the mass of infantry were Pikes. So strong cheap pikes is now in my mod.

[Musashi]

The main reason pikemen didn't come into vogue earlier is simple... Medieval armies relied heavily on largely untrained rabble, and pikemen require constant drill and extensive training to be truly effective.

[ChewieTobbacca]

In this thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...t=72053&page=2

I wrote about pikemen and the tercio formation. I actually did manage to get pikemen to attack - the trick was to right click them to attack even when they are holding ground. They'll try to keep their pikes going to attack. THe mod should make it interesting, but I think CA did intend them to be this way to make them not so powerful, because when my Tercio's charged with pikes.... not even heavy dismounted knights stood in their way.

[dopp]

In this thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...t=72053&page=2

I wrote about pikemen and the tercio formation. I actually did manage to get pikemen to attack - the trick was to right click them to attack even when they are holding ground. They'll try to keep their pikes going to attack. THe mod should make it interesting, but I think CA did intend them to be this way to make them not so powerful, because when my Tercio's charged with pikes.... not even heavy dismounted knights stood in their way.

That only works about 50% of the time. The other 50% of the time they switch to swords. I've tried that rightclick trick numerous times and the formation will break up almost instantly. Switching them off guard mode sometimes accomplishes the same result, sometimes it doesn't. It's very iffy, in fact I recommend NOT rightclicking if you use vanilla settings, just wait until the pike formation steadies (ie the pikemen freeze in position and the enemy can't approach closer) before switching off guard mode to let the pikemen start pushing. Of course, often the enemy break right through the pikes on the first charge, the swords come out and stay out, and the formation is utterly destroyed. I don't mind weaker pikemen, but they need to use their pikes more.

Also, I'm not sure I buy the idea of dismounted knights being the game's ultimate heavy infantry. A bunch of rich horsemen who decided to walk one day shouldn't still rule the battlefield as they do when mounted. Dismounted cavalry aside, there aren't really that many higher-level swordsmen available, they mostly become pikes and halberds. The only high-level swordsmen I can think of atm are sword-and-buckler men and those crazy HRE 2-handers. Everyone else either gets pikemen or some sort of halberd/bill/glaive for their ultimate heavy infantry, and right now pikemen don't seem to want to be pikemen.

That said, my tests reveal that pikemen get rather invincible if they stay in formation and don't give in to visions of swordplay. Their stats may need rebalancing if you decide to use my proposed tweak. All tests are on huge unit sizes.

First test series (5 tests each series), Scottish Heavy Pike Militia (the armored ones) vs English Armored Swordsmen. Scots widen formation 4 deep to match the English and brace in spear wall. Scots switched off guard mode after initial contact and begin to poke. Test ends the instant the Swordsmen break. The swordsmen break right into the formation on the first charge, but are quickly pushed out or dispatched before the pikemen go onto the offensive, easily killing the remaining swordsmen before the few pitiful survivors run for their lives. Kills average 86-95 for the pikemen and 13-27 for the swordsmen.

Second test series, Spanish Tercio Pikemen vs Jaguar Warriors, same setup. The Jaguar Warriors smack the entire front rank of pikemen into the dirt on contact before getting pushed back by the rear ranks. The pikemen go on the offensive, annihilating the Jaguars within seconds. Final score: 105-127 for the pikemen and 17-34 for the jaguars.

Third test series, Spanish Tercio Pikemen vs the legendary Janissary Heavy Infantry. The janissaries are wiped out in the centre, but the eight or so that work their way around each flank kill over 40 pikemen before they are routed. I increased the width of the Tercio to compensate. This time the pikemen rout the janissaries with ease. 107 kills for the pikemen every time and 13-23 kills for the janissaries. Something wrong here, I don't really want janissaries to lose so easily.

Fourth test series, Scottish Noble Pikemen vs 2 units of English Armored Swordsmen, one approaching head-on, one moving to flank. The stupid AI forces the pikes to march to engage instead of bracing. The Scots tear up the frontal attackers but are massacred by the flankers. 74-78 kills for the pikes, 120 for both swords.

Fifth test series, Scottish Noble Pikemen vs English Heavy Billmen and Demi-Lancers delivering a rear charge. Pikemen tear up the bills but are completely flattened by the lancers, who lose barely 5 men before the pikes break. The kill figures are completely meaningless since 80% of the unit is vaporised on impact with the horses.

Conclusion: Hard to say. The pikemen seem way too invincible from the front, but you sometimes get the same results when they work properly in vanilla. The problem of course is that they don't always work properly in vanilla. This 'fix' (tweak or cheat might be just as appropriate) definitely makes them more consistent, but risks leaving them overpowered.

Edit: You will get very different results depending on whether you or the AI controls the pikemen. AI-controlled pikemen are much more vulnerable, swords or no swords. In fact, AI-controlled pikemen on vanilla are completely hopeless, they don't even attack and do that aboutface thing.

You will also get different results if you use full armies against each other. In pitched battle 6 JHI chopped apart 6 Tercios with contemptous ease.

[grinningman]

The pikemen seem way too invincible from the front, but you sometimes get the same results when they work properly in vanilla. The problem of course is that they don't always work properly in vanilla. This 'fix' (tweak or cheat might be just as appropriate) definitely makes them more consistent, but risks leaving them overpowered.

Is it a bad thing for pikes to be invincible from the front? This sounds fine to me. They can still be dealt with via outflanking and missile fire.

[Ludivico Sforza]

Thanks for this, indespensible for my personal Pike and Musket mod.

[Kraxis]

I find it fair enough that militia pikes have a problem at maintaining formation, they are after all just above rabble with long sticks. It does look stupid though.

However Swiss Pikemen and perhaps Flemish as well, would be far more disciplined, and wuld not draw their swords until the very last moment. So perhaps they, the Landsknechts, Scottish Noble Pikes and Tercios should be the only ones to not have swords?
The would make them viable on the offensive, while the lesser pikes would be strong defensive units, there mainly to hold the frontlines while cavalry or strong infantry flank.

[dopp]

I find it fair enough that militia pikes have a problem at maintaining formation, they are after all just above rabble with long sticks. It does look stupid though.

Hardly cheap rabble though, considering the expense of that militia barracks you need to get them. Militia pikes performed much poorer on tests than the professionals, losing over twice as many men and breaking easily when the swordsmen spilled over onto their flanks. They only have morale 3 compared to 9-11 for elite pikes, and their formation-keeping is only trained instead of highly_trained.

[Ektelion]

This is probably the reason england so handily beats scotland in terms of infantry balance, IMHO.

[Kraxis]

Hardly cheap rabble though, considering the expense of that militia barracks you need to get them. Militia pikes performed much poorer on tests than the professionals, losing over twice as many men and breaking easily when the swordsmen spilled over onto their flanks. They only have morale 3 compared to 9-11 for elite pikes, and their formation-keeping is only trained instead of highly_trained.

Ah yes, but it is the thinking behind the pikes that is the expensive part. It still demands a good deal to figure that out (apparently), and it requires a certain degree of local logistics (in terms of weapons and trainers) to get it going.
Also you have to consider the fact that without a 'Marius event' there is little to limit the pikes, other than relatively high tech. So that you get pikes at an appropriate age... I don't think it is fair to coldly look at the costs needed to get to pikes. Their techlevel is a limit on their appearance in time, not a realistic guage as to how effective the troops are at killing.

But you yourself argued that pikes are far too strong now that they have no swords. So I argued that the strong pikes should not get swords as they are more than anything underpowered in 1v1, compared to their cost and the historical records.

[dopp]

But you yourself argued that pikes are far too strong now that they have no swords. So I argued that the strong pikes should not get swords as they are more than anything underpowered in 1v1, compared to their cost and the historical records.

I think it's okay for militia pikes to have no swords as well in that case, since they are far more fragile than the professionals. You even stand a chance of beating them frontally if you throw something hard enough at them. It's the professionals I'm a little concerned about, it's no fun for a Turkish or Byzantine player to throw Janissaries and Varangians and watch them go splat against Swiss or something.

Note: Pikemen can still be beaten easily if you flank or rear them. A cavalry charge to the rear will destroy them as easily as any other unit. A swordsmen unit that overlaps the flanks will also trounce them handily. It's to the front that they are almost invincible as their kill rate is unbelievably fast. Once again, achieving this kill rate *is* possible in vanilla, I just made it possible anytime, all the time.

[Kobal2fr]

I wonder how halberds fare against you buffed-up pikes... If I'm not mistaken, they were invented to beat them in the first place weren't they ? Break the pike, then chop up the pikeman, sort of thing ?

But I'd say a push of pike wouldn't have very fast killing rates. Invincible from the front, perhaps, probably even, but killing knights by the wagon, by the second ? Hardly. Slow but steady would be my uninformed guess. Maybe giving them the same "lethality" as spears would do the trick ? Then again I seem to remember that the lethality stat from Rome is now used for something else alltogether, so that might not work :/

[dopp]

I wonder how halberds fare against you buffed-up pikes... If I'm not mistaken, they were invented to beat them in the first place weren't they ? Break the pike, then chop up the pikeman, sort of thing ?

But I'd say a push of pike wouldn't have very fast killing rates. Invincible from the front, perhaps, probably even, but killing knights by the wagon, by the second ? Hardly. Slow but steady would be my uninformed guess. Maybe giving them the same "lethality" as spears would do the trick ? Then again I seem to remember that the lethality stat from Rome is now used for something else alltogether, so that might not work :/

Refer to the test I did with JHI. No contest, instant death after the charge. That's what concerns me the most, the way halberds (and very good halberds at that) lose to the pikes now, since some factions only get high-level halberds/bills instead of pikes as their ultimate heavy infantry, ie they should be roughly equivalent in performance. Right now the halberds lose too easily, which leaves half the factions without heavy infantry to match the pikes. But if you use vanilla settings, then it's the halberds who chop the pikes into tiny pieces without breaking a sweat, which leaves half the factions without heavy infantry to match the halberds.

Part of the problem, of course, is that I doubt you would see either pure pikes or pure halberd formations historically, but the game doesn't have mixed formations like that.

I'm not sure about halberds beating pikes (or legions beating phalanxes, or 2-handers breaking pike formations, or sword-and-bucklers poking pikemen to death). The pike appears to have remained in use whereas the supposed counters quickly disappeared, something that cannot be attributed solely to the use of musketeers in combination with the pikemen. I doubt carrying a pike makes a person any more bulletproof than carrying a sword, yet pikemen are used in large numbers until the invention of the bayonet allows them to carry muskets and shoot as well. Pikemen were aggressively used as heavy infantry as well and often decided battles in the center, so the idea that they were meant solely to protect the gunners against cavalry doesn't hold water either.

Their kill rate is ridiculously fast, but then again the general melee kill rate in M2TW is pretty high as well. The pikeman attack animation is not very fast by itself, but the formation means 4 pikemen are poking at every attacker. Maybe reducing their attack to spearmen level (right now it's somewhere around swordsmen level) would suffice to lower the lethality a little. Good pikemen average attack 10, while Swiss are 14. 5 and 7 might be better values.

If CA would just let them use their pikes a little longer it would solve things a lot better than all this tweaking. I want to see my pikemen poke, RPS balance is a poor excuse for making them switch to swords any time they are attacked by something other than cavalry (if that is indeed the reason). Even against cavalry they switch to swords after the charge, it's just that with +8 attack vs horse the horsemen are so decimated by the impact that they run almost immediately. Say what you want about finding bug where there are none, but as things stand now, pikemen don't deliver.

[Shahed]

It is possible to have it both ways. Halberds can deliver and so can pikes. It's not mutually exclusive, but currently in an unmodded version neither really deliver (except JHI). At least we got one working this way, plus combined with any one of the 2H fixes might make it all come together. Nobody should be attacking pikes head on anyway.

Are they also invincible if attacked from the rear ? I guess not right ?

[Musashi]

Refer to the test I did with JHI. No contest, instant death after the charge. That's what concerns me the most, the way halberds (and very good halberds at that) lose to the pikes now, since some factions only get high-level halberds/bills instead of pikes as their ultimate heavy infantry, ie they should be roughly equivalent in performance. Right now the halberds lose too easily, which leaves half the factions without heavy infantry to match the pikes. But if you use vanilla settings, then it's the halberds who chop the pikes into tiny pieces without breaking a sweat, which leaves half the factions without heavy infantry to match the halberds.

Part of the problem, of course, is that I doubt you would see either pure pikes or pure halberd formations historically, but the game doesn't have mixed formations like that.

I'm not sure about halberds beating pikes (or legions beating phalanxes, or 2-handers breaking pike formations, or sword-and-bucklers poking pikemen to death). The pike appears to have remained in use whereas the supposed counters quickly disappeared, something that cannot be attributed solely to the use of musketeers in combination with the pikemen. I doubt carrying a pike makes a person any more bulletproof than carrying a sword, yet pikemen are used in large numbers until the invention of the bayonet allows them to carry muskets and shoot as well. Pikemen were aggressively used as heavy infantry as well and often decided battles in the center, so the idea that they were meant solely to protect the gunners against cavalry doesn't hold water either.

Their kill rate is ridiculously fast, but then again the general melee kill rate in M2TW is pretty high as well. The pikeman attack animation is not very fast by itself, but the formation means 4 pikemen are poking at every attacker. Maybe reducing their attack to spearmen level (right now it's somewhere around swordsmen level) would suffice to lower the lethality a little. Good pikemen average attack 10, while Swiss are 14. 5 and 7 might be better values.

If CA would just let them use their pikes a little longer it would solve things a lot better than all this tweaking. I want to see my pikemen poke, RPS balance is a poor excuse for making them switch to swords any time they are attacked by something other than cavalry (if that is indeed the reason). Even against cavalry they switch to swords after the charge, it's just that with +8 attack vs horse the horsemen are so decimated by the impact that they run almost immediately. Say what you want about finding bug where there are none, but as things stand now, pikemen don't deliver.

JHI are NOT halberdiers. Halberds have the spearwall formation, JHI do not. Try them against actual Halberd Militia.

[dopp]

Are they also invincible if attacked from the rear ? I guess not right ?

Heh, if I could figure out how to post screenies I have a nice shot of Noble Pikemen receiving a fatal overdose of Demi-Lancers to the rear. Pikemen are just as vulnerable to rear charges as any other unit, even more so as only the individual pikemen being attacked will turn around to strike (with pikes OR swords; the mod doesn't seem to make a difference in the pikemen's rather poor ability to defend themselves against flankers).

I also have a nice screen of JHI overlapping a Tercio. The Tercios killed all the JHI immediately facing them, but got massacred on the flanks. The flanking 16 JHI killed 40-60 pikemen and would have destroyed the whole unit if I didn't switch spear wall off and allowed the pikemen to defend themselves.

The real, real problem with pikemen is that they don't use the reach of their pike to full advantage. Order a unit of pikemen to attack another and you'll see what I mean. The unit moving to engage will try to walk into the target, whereupon both sides will break out swords and it becomes a swordsmen fight from then on. No push of pike at all. Or brace a unit of pikemen and run a unit of swords into it. The pikemen will draw swords and kill off the attackers who break into the formation, then they will close with the enemy and fight as swordsmen from then on. Even with this "tweak" I've had the AI try to walk pikemen through my DGK, taking hideous losses in the process. The custom battle AI is a little retarded when it comes to using pikemen.

Btw, I tried JHI against Jaguar Warriors and they lost all 3 times. Are they really overpowered? They seem to be made of tissue paper and their attack animation isn't all that fast either.

[Shahed]

You can post screens by:

1. Upload to a free host e.g www.photobucket.com
2. Wrap img tags around your img url e.g [img]www.photobucket.com/me/pic.jpg[/img]

[Musashi]

Hmmm... Halberd militia seems to need a boost... They get creamed by Pike Militia when they should realistically win. The smaller unit size and weaker stats are making them basically useless...