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Thread: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

  1. #31

    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    That's a wonderfull guide, I was wondering if anyone has ever managed to go beyond the first Masons guild?

    I can manage to get the first one, but I never seem to get the upgraded guilds even if I completely bankrupt myself by building the needed buildings I can't seem to get the masons guild to improve.

    has anyone ever mannaged and how did you do it?

  2. #32

    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Thanks for the wonderful guide.

    A quick question. If I take over a city/castle will the points reset? I assume it's no.

  3. #33

    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    My observations about the Byzantines and Guilds-These may reflect my style of play rather than hard and fast rules

    Hard to Get Guilds
    The Byzantines seem to have a really hard time getting a Swordsmith Guild. I can sometimes get the basic one but often times end up capturing a Master's level one from the Hungarians who always seem to have one in Bran. This could be because the swordsmen and dismounted Lancers are fairly hard to reach and I am more interested in reaching the "Drill Square" than I am in armor upgrades.

    Once I managed to get a Horse Breeders Guild but I think I captured it rather than qualified for it because it appeared in a city I'd just stormed.

    I've had a basic Alchemy guild in Constantinople once.

    Common Byzantine Guilds
    Merchant Guilds.
    Because Constantinople starts as a large city with a port it will normally receive a Merchants' Guild up to at least the second level. By 100 years in most Byzantine cities seem to have a merchants guild and the Grand Master Guild is often in Constantinople.

    Theology Guild
    The Theologian guild seems to also give a big boost to the ability of a Priest in bringing Heretics and Witches to trial. The basic chance looks to rise about 15 to 25 % for Orthodox priest. I believe you build points towards one by training priest in the city. If I train about six or seven priest in one place and then walk them to other places it seems that city will always get a Theology guild

    It would also be interesting to know whether there are two different Theology guilds, one for Catholic and another for Orthodox. If there is only one what does having the Grandmaster Theology Guild in Nicaea do to the papal selection process?

    Thieves & Explorers Guilds
    Almost every Byzantine city will be offered a Thieves Guild and an Explorers Guild. I have to be careful not to let my cities be over run my explorers guilds, especially in Asia Minor and Near East.

    It may also be that, unlike MTW there are buildings guilds among them guilds that certain factions cannot build but may capture.

    An interesting experiment might be to get a Crusader guild in a province next to the Byzantines and see if it would remain if the settlement changed hands


    Just my thoughts
    Last edited by Gray Beard; 01-30-2007 at 05:11.
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  4. #34
    The Real Ad miN Member Tran's Avatar
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    Question Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Can someone explain to me more about the guild missions? The only mission so far I've received is Merchant Guild's mission which has strange penalty saying that failing mission will appease them...LOL... they must be drunk or something. I've never received mission from other guild.

    Also, what's the requirements (if there's any) to get mission from guilds?

    By the way, in my English campaign I have conquered Spain and in one of their former cities (now mine) there's a Knight of Santiago chapter house in it, but it seems I can't build any Knight of Santiago or any similiar special unit (Knights of Templar for England). I wonder if it was intended this way or maybe it's a glitch or bug?
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  5. #35
    BLEEEE! Senior Member Daveybaby's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Quote Originally Posted by xseabrookx
    A quick question. If I take over a city/castle will the points reset? I assume it's no.
    Pretty sure thats correct, havent seen anything in the game text files, and i often get offered guilds in recently conquered cities, so its unlikely that the score has been reset or it would take much longer.

    Ditto for changing a city to a castle and vice versa.


    Can someone explain to me more about the guild missions? The only mission so far I've received is Merchant Guild's mission which has strange penalty saying that failing mission will appease them...LOL... they must be drunk or something. I've never received mission from other guild.
    Hmmm... now that you mention it, i dont recall getting many guild missions since the patch. Bug?

    By the way, in my English campaign I have conquered Spain and in one of their former cities (now mine) there's a Knight of Santiago chapter house in it, but it seems I can't build any Knight of Santiago or any similiar special unit (Knights of Templar for England). I wonder if it was intended this way or maybe it's a glitch or bug?
    It seems that the Knights of Santiago unit is faction specific as well as the guild building itself - so even though youve captured the building you dont get to build the unit.

    In the same way if you capture (say) an english bowmaker building, you wont get to train any longbowmen in it, only the relevant bow units from your own faction.

  6. #36

    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    And if ill transfrom castle into city - points will reset? - asking cause want to get horse breeder's guild HQ while playing Russians (all of their mounted units are trained in castle).

    1 more quiestion - any mod aviable that makes chance for offer to set up guild to appear 100% (after settlement got enough points ofc)

  7. #37
    Masticator of Oreos Member Foz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    I wanted to post here to comment on some oddities regarding guilds. I've noticed on here several people commenting on receiving guild offers when they are certain they have not done enough things to earn guild points to get the guild offered to them. I also have noticed this behavior... and am in the process of looking into it to determine what exactly is going on. Two ideas have primarily surfaced:

    - Guilds start with some base amount of points at the beginning of the campaign. It's likely this would be the same number for each one.
    - Guild points are actually awarded for the buildings each settlement starts the campaign with (and probably all its precursor buildings too - i.e. if you have a market, you probably get the points for a grain silo too). This would go a long way toward explaining why it's so easy to get offered a guild in the cities you get that start very developed - they haven't usually developed long before you get an offer, and certainly not long enough to have built up guild points (if they didn't have any to start with). Especially the settlement upgrades that give 10 points to all guilds could be huge for advanced settlements.

    I'm betting it's the latter case, and that whatever script creates those pre-existing buildings in each settlement also triggers all building-completed triggers, thus granting guild points. It would even make sense as a feature, as advanced cities could be assumed to be building up guild points before you get control of them - after all, the buildings you have had to be built at some point.

    Anyway, I'm in the middle of fiddling with this to figure out how many (if any) guild points each one starts with, and will post more info as soon as I have it. In the meantime, everyone should feel free to share their thoughts


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  8. #38
    Masticator of Oreos Member Foz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Well, I spent some time last night playing with things to research guild mechanics further. I stripped the guild file of everything except for the top part (with the points needed for each guild) and the triggers for buildings completing. This was primarily in order to remove factors that are hard to figure out - the presence of a chivalrous or dreadful general, the normalization after turn 25, the points for recruiting units or doing agent missions, etc. I then started an English campaign. I did nothing except build up the 3 cities you start with. I flipped Nottingham and Caen to cities, and set them to financial build policy in order to fund the experiment in London. I built up London, focusing on growth to get it to city status ASAP (in order not to miss any guild offers due to being only a large town). After it was a city for a while, I started getting offers for various guilds.

    The first was a Mason's guild, which makes sense because the stone wall upgrades gain that a bunch of points. This one is the key one in demonstrating that the guild points start at zero, and you don't get credited with any building you start the campaign with. I tallied the things that would grant London guild points on the turn it was offered:

    - 6 points from Nottingham. I think they were from 2 armorer buildings and a town militia building (can't remember the right name for the series ATM).
    - 8 points from Caen. It was some combination of town militia buildings, armorers, and a stone wall IIRC.
    - 100 points from London itself. 30 were for city level upgrades (it was huge). 45 more for the complete stone wall series. The other 25 were armorer buildings which the AI is so fond of building when you let it manage a settlement.

    So that's 114 total, the last bunch coming from a building completing in London of course. This wouldn't be an eventful finding though, except that Mason's Guild is one that London would naturally have had a bunch of points for if starting buildings counted:

    2nd level barracks = 10+15=25 pts
    3 levels of mustering hall at 2 other settlements: 6 pts

    For 31 total, if pre-existing buildings counted toward guild totals. That last building I completed to get the offer could only have been 20 points at most (if it was the highest stone wall - London for certain had no buildings that give Masons Guild more than 20 pts). That would make my total without that last building no less than 114-20=94, and the 31 from pre-existing buildings would've meant the guild would've been offered far sooner than it was since 94+31=125 which is clearly greater than 100. Even if only the building that the city actually starts at counted (not its precursor levels), it would still be 15+4=19, and 94+19>100. Therefore, you clearly do not get guild points for buildings that exist already in settlements when the game starts.

    This exercise also makes it clear that the guilds do not start at some base level (except zero). My Mason's guild point total prior to the building completing must've been 94 or 99 (depending whether the 15 or 20 point building was the one I completed to make 114 and get the offer). These total are so close to 100 that I'd have been offered the guild if the mason's guild total had started at anything other than zero.

    The other guilds offered followed in similar suit: They all happened when the points from buildings I'd built dictated they should be offered, and several of them confirmed that starting buildings did not count.

    So I conclude that the guild system works just like it is purported to. There still may be bugs that I haven't witnessed, but I can't vouch for that - and it could just be people overlooking things that contribute guild points legitimately.

    I found out something else useful in this process: apparently there is about a 10 turn cooldown on guild offers for guilds you've rejected. In order to keep getting offers in London I was rejecting all the ones I got... and sure enough, ~10 turns later I'd end up with the same guild offer again. After a few different ones popped up, I got a very predictable cycle of guild offers. This also implies that turning a guild away is not treated the same as destroying a guild building - there's no way I kept gaining enough guild points to make up a 100 points deficit in any of those guilds at London every 10 turns, so turning down a guild offer doesn't seem to affect the guild points at all, but rather just puts that guild on a delay timer during which period it can't be offered.


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  9. #39

    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    When I occupy a settlement , and exterminate the population , the guild's building will be too destroyed. My question is , it will be minus guild points , or not?

  10. #40
    Masticator of Oreos Member Foz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Quote Originally Posted by hatezgaz
    When I occupy a settlement , and exterminate the population , the guild's building will be too destroyed. My question is , it will be minus guild points , or not?
    I don't think anyone is in position to give a definitive answer for this. The trigger looks like this though:
    Code:
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger 0002_Guild_Destroyed
        WhenToTest GuildDestroyed
    
    
        Guild this s -100 
        Guild this o -20
    That being the case, I'm going to speculate that anytime a guild is destroyed for any reason at all, the GuildDestroyed condition is set, and thus you'll lose the 100 points in that settlement and 20 everywhere else for that guild type. Conditions typically don't discriminate as to what caused them to happen, so since this one is described as something like "a guild building is destroyed," instead of "the destroy guild building button was pushed," it seems reasonable to assume a building lost due to extermination counts as GuildDestroyed and therefore gives the appropriate minuses. I would roll with that assumption unless you see definitive evidence otherwise...


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  11. #41

    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Just to make sure I'm reading this correctly, for example I have a Horse Breeders HQ in Granada. Any cavalry trained there should start with +3 valour out the gates(+2 from HQ, +1 from any lvl guild in the city). But if I train that same cavalry unit in Pamplona which has no HB guilds I would only get the faction wide +2 valour out the gates?

    Does the HQ only upgrade from the Masters guild location...or could I have a master guild in one town and a HQ in another?
    ---------------------

    I just got offered St. Johns in a city, i thought those were castle only?
    Last edited by grapedog; 02-23-2007 at 02:04.

  12. #42

    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    no text...

  13. #43

    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Quote Originally Posted by grapedog
    Just to make sure I'm reading this correctly, for example I have a Horse Breeders HQ in Granada. Any cavalry trained there should start with +3 valour out the gates(+2 from HQ, +1 from any lvl guild in the city). But if I train that same cavalry unit in Pamplona which has no HB guilds I would only get the faction wide +2 valour out the gates?

    Does the HQ only upgrade from the Masters guild location...or could I have a master guild in one town and a HQ in another?
    ---------------------

    I just got offered St. Johns in a city, i thought those were castle only?
    The Master is an upgrade, the HQ also.

    And I'm unsure how the exp stacks at this point. Still experimenting.

    It occurs to me that a convoluted path to HBG might be via the merchant guild for those who can't build cav in cities and don't or can't convert a castle that has stocked up lots of points for building cav and stables into a city. If you build a merchants guild, knock out a lot of the merchant cav militia, you should be able to then destroy it and get HBG with the saved up points. I have not tested this theory, but cav should be cav.

  14. #44

    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    When playing as the moors I have been struggling to get the Merchants guild and the explorers guild. I would really like some help/hints about how I could get them.

  15. #45
    The Real Ad miN Member Tran's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Just my thoughts and from my experience:

    Merchant's Guild- Upgrade your markets and build lots of merchants from one certain city

    Explorer's Guild - Not too sure, build lots of ships, upgrade your docks from one certain city? I have already built Explorer's Guild HQ in Dublin (lucky! it was close to New World), but I recalled that my docks weren't so advanced compare to others in London, Caen, and elsewhere...
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  16. #46

    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Quote Originally Posted by Tran
    Just my thoughts and from my experience:

    Merchant's Guild- Upgrade your markets and build lots of merchants from one certain city

    Explorer's Guild - Not too sure, build lots of ships, upgrade your docks from one certain city? I have already built Explorer's Guild HQ in Dublin (lucky! it was close to New World), but I recalled that my docks weren't so advanced compare to others in London, Caen, and elsewhere...
    Lots of overlap between the two. Upgrade anything relating to trade. Build merchants. Send ships far away. I tend to pop all my merchants from one city until I get the merchant guild there, but half the time I get offered the explorers first.

  17. #47

    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    The original post suggested that only one basic guild is allowed per city/castle and only one upgrade per faction. That being the case which is the best one to go for as you just know you will never get the Hq other than by conquest

  18. #48

    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Pugwash
    The original post suggested that only one basic guild is allowed per city/castle and only one upgrade per faction. That being the case which is the best one to go for as you just know you will never get the Hq other than by conquest
    You can build the full line. I just went up the whole Merchant guild line. What I think you can't do it have an HQ built in a city with a plain guild. Needs to be in a city with a master guild. But once you have the HQ you can capture some other faction's master guild and thus have both types.

  19. #49
    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Exclamation Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    ANOTHER GUIDE TO GUILDS

    I've run across another guide to guilds which I find is excellent as well. I'm posting it here in case others don't know of it:

    Dark Knight's Guide to Guilds.

    Game on !
    Last edited by Shahed; 04-23-2007 at 00:32.
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  20. #50
    Pincushioned Ashigaru Member Poulp''s Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    In the eyes of a non MTW2 player, it looks like a good guide, well written and well presented. (the jump option is very handy)

    that's a good find, Sinan

    the author's avatar is a plus, too !

  21. #51
    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Thanks, yeah it is a great guide as well, perfect complement to this one.
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  22. #52
    BLEEEE! Senior Member Daveybaby's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Yeah, thats a great thread, particularly w.r.t. modding. Also lots of good stuff about guild missions, plus a mention of what in hindsight is blatantly obvious - if you simply build and demolish a low level building over and over again you should be able to get some of the trickier guilds - cant believe i never thought of that before.

    e.g.

    For Mason's Guild, repeatedly build and destroy leather tanner or town hall.
    For Swordsmith's Guild (if youre one of the factions that cant just build swordsmen to get it) repeatedly build and destroy leather tanner.
    For Woodsman's Guild (if youre not english) repeatedly build and destroy brothels.

    Havent actually tried this yet, but it should work according to the conditions in the textfiles.

  23. #53
    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    LOL Dave ! Well I'm not that "slightly crooked" either (unfortunately) so I never thought of that ! Anyway in my current English campaign I'm confident I'll get Mason's HQ. I'm doing it the long hard way, citadel .. then convert to city. I think I will get it. I hope ! but if that fails, leather tanners it is.
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  24. #54

    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    any necessary update for the 2nd patch?

  25. #55
    BLEEEE! Senior Member Daveybaby's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Quote Originally Posted by darth_napo
    any necessary update for the 2nd patch?
    Dont know yet - planning to go through the 1.2 textfiles with a fine toothed comb and see what's changed (e.g. hopefully a few bugs have been fixed) but real life (i.e. work) has gotten in the way a bit, and i havent even got around to extracting the textfiles yet.

    If anyone has the 1.2 versions of the relevant textfiles (list below) handy, and they post them somewhere i can probably find a few spare minutes here and there to get started.

    export_descr_guilds.txt
    export_descr_buildings.txt
    export_descr_ancillaries.txt
    export_descr_character_traits.txt
    export_descr_unit.txt

  26. #56
    Member Member YXAndyYX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Hey guys,

    I made a diplomats guild (as diplomats are the only agents (beside princesses) which cannot be boosted by guilds) that works exactly like the thieves guild or the assassins guild so all trained diplomats will gain up to 3 influence depending on the guild level...

    Everything worked fine but then I thought that this guild might also improve princesses...

    Now I want to add some princess related triggers that give guild points on my diplomats guild and that's why I would like to know how I test if

    1. a female family member was born (maybe even distinguish between prospective princesses and "normal" female family members) or
    2. one of my princesses gets married


    in the export_descr_guilds.txt.

    Basically I'm only struggeling with the conditions that need to be set, the events are of course Birth in the first case and CharacterMarriesPrincess in the second one or am I mistaken?

    Hopefully you can help me out...

  27. #57

    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Is the rule on Master's Guilds that there can be only one MG built (total) per faction, or that there can only be one of EACH TYPE of MG built per faction?

    In other words, can I build a Master's Merchant Guild in one city, a Master Swordsmith's Guild in a second, and a Master Explorer's Guild in a third city, or can I only build basic guilds everywhere, except for one city, where I can build one MG (and eventually upgrade it to a HG if possible)?

  28. #58
    Barbarian of the north Member Magraev's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    You can have several master guilds (one pr. guild type) pr. faction, but only one hq in the world of each type.
    Nope - no sig what so ever.

  29. #59

    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Is it possible to find out exactly, in numerical value, how many points a city has towards any specific guild?

  30. #60
    Aged retainer Member Guyus Germanicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Davey,

    Sorry, to interrupt some other conversations guys. I just wanted to say 'thank you' to 'Davey' and 'Nate' and several others who have laid out some guides and advice on M2TW.

    I've been an avid fan of RTW for over year now, but have been playing the game on an 18 month old desktop. Just purchased a new Dell Laptop, XPS1710 with a real gaming video card and treated myself by buying M2TW. What a difference the new videocard makes in display!

    As I got into M2TW I made too many assumptions about how the game worked and got bit. My! What added depth and dimension there is to M2TW! Merchant warfare, religious conversion rates, trade, extra buildings, and a much slower pace in combat. I was getting frustrated as I was always short of money in the easy setting. Was suffering huge casualties storming city walls.
    As usual, good advice from my fellow 'guilders' as helped me 'get a clue.'
    Have not been on the internet much from home either so have gotten away from conversation with my fellow 'total war' groupies.
    I'm on for good now. And test driving several factions at once in different games.

    I will say this much - for a moribund decrepit empire, the Byzantines sure seem to hold their own in this game. I should think the Ottomans would have a definite edge. And I'm already a bit partial to the Mamluks. Am dreading the serious warfare to come. . . . and loving it too.
    I remain,
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