Mohammed - a paedophile?

[KARTLOS]

Its an embarrassing and rarely discussed aspect of the prophets lifestyle (particularly by apologists in the west), but by modern standards there is little doubt that the prohet was a paedophile and would be run out of town in any normal community (rather than revered as god holy messenger)

the facts briefly are that whilst in late-middle age he married his final wife aisha when she was six and consumated the marriage when she was 9.

these facts are widely accepted as true within islam, i.e there tends to be debate as to the interpretation rather than the dates.

i am surprised that this isnt brought up more often. to me once someone is established as a paedophile they lose all moral authority and respect. im intrigued as to how anyone (particularly muslims) would try to explain this away?

i dont buy the "different times, different standards" argument by the way - a child is a child and no normal man would in any circumstances want to have sex with a 9yr old.

edit: here is a link to a wikipedia page on the issue, i aknowledge wikipedia isnt the msot reliabel source and suggest reading around the issue

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha%27s_age_at_marriage

[Strike For The South]

I cant say I fully agree and cant say I fully disagree ethier. I need more info. Ill watch the fireworks on this one

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

The problem is, is that people need to understand alot of things that are shunned in modern society was normal practice back then. I don't think it really matters if Mohammed was a pedophile, he created a religion that is still practiced today. Personal life doesn't (shouldn't) change what the person did. Like arguing that Hannibal was black. Would it really change what he did? No.

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

i dont buy the "different times, different standards" argument by the way - a child is a child and no normal man would in any circumstances want to have sex with a 9yr old.

How do you know? I bet you would be doing it if you lived back then. Really, you can't say that a man wouldn't be attracted to a young girl. I'm not saying being a pedophile is right, I'm saying it was common practice, Abraham had another wife, who was his maid (Hagar wasn't it?). Today that would be considered a no-no, but back then it was common practice.

[KARTLOS]

it doesnt change what he did = establish a successful religion

but surely it should destroy his crediblity? i dont understand how anyone can follow the teacings of a nonce

[KARTLOS]

How do you know? I bet you would be doing it if you lived back then. Really, you can't say that a man wouldn't be attracted to a young girl. I'm not saying being a pedophile is right, I'm saying it was common practice, Abraham had another wife, who was his maid (Hagar wasn't it?). Today that would be considered a no-no, but back then it was common practice.

i cant believe you are arguing this issue. we are not talking about a "young woman" here, a 9yr old is a 9yr old. men arent biologically programmed to find 9yr olds sexually attrative, it is not something that should cross a normal persons mind.

hagar iirc was simply a second wife, that might not be standard practice now but there is nothing inherently abhorent or unnatural about it.

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

it doesnt change what he did = establish a successful religion

but surely it should destroy his crediblity? i dont understand how anyone can follow the teacings of a nonce

I don't understand how people never come to realize today's world is different than the past's world. How can Jews follow the teachings of Abraham even though he had an affair with Hagar, and married her AND had Ishmael? Because he taught a religion of faith that is important to daily life. Really it doesn't matter if Mohammed was a pedophile, because it doesn't change what he did. Really, they follow the teachings of him. Wow he was a pedophile, he must not be a messenger of God! Really as I always state, alot was different back then.

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

i cant believe you are arguing this issue. we are not talking about a "young woman" here, a 9yr old is a 9yr old. men arent biologically programmed to find 9yr olds sexually attrative, it is not something that should cross a normal persons mind.

hagar iirc was simply a second wife, that might not be standard practice now but there is nothing inherently abhorent or unnatural about it.

So Abraham can have an affair, a second wife and a child with that second wife, but Mohammed can't be attracted to a girl? Come on. A "biologically programmed" person. A person is different from another person. They aren't all programmed the same. Again, you didn't live then and can't say what's "normal".

[KARTLOS]

im not sure why you continue to equate having an affair/second wife, with defiling a child surely they are not in the same league?

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

Because both are considered wrong today, I'm making a point you seem to not get. IT WAS DIFFERENT BACK THEN, TODAY IT IS CONSIDERED WRONG BUT BACK THEN IT WAS NORMAL.

[KARTLOS]

So Abraham can have an affair, a second wife and a child with that second wife, but Mohammed can't be attracted to a girl? Come on. .

"but mohammed cant be attracted to a girl" this girl was 6!! when he fist married her! i cant believe you are suggesting that might be ok/normal

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

"but mohammed cant be attracted to a girl" this girl was 6!! when he fist married her! i cant believe you are suggesting that might be ok/normal

I'm not saying it's ok/normal!!!! I'm saying it was different back then, and things have changed! Maybe next time you should read E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G

[KARTLOS]

IT WAS DIFFERENT BACK THEN, TODAY IT IS CONSIDERED WRONG BUT BACK THEN IT WAS NORMAL.[/B]

due you have any evidence that it was considered normal back then? even if it was normal it does not mean that it was objectively "ok" but rather suggests that a society were it was prevelant was dominated by perverse males.

in this specific situation, which occured towards the end of mohammeds life when he had become a very respected figure it seems to me that mohammed was abusing his postion of authority, ie it was at the point were if mo says its ok it must be

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

due you have any evidence that it was considered normal back then? even if it was normal it does not mean that it was objectively "ok" but rather suggests that a society were it was prevelant was dominated by perverse males.

in this specific situation, which occured towards the end of mohammeds life when he had become a very respected figure it seems to me that mohammed was abusing his postion of authority, ie it was at the point were if mo says its ok it must be

Do you have any evidence that he married a 6 year old? I do know it was normal back then because MOST EVERYONE DID IT. If it wasn't "OK" they wouldn't have done it. You seem to only reply to things I say that you can actually say something about. I haven't seen you agree with the fact that THINGS HAVE CHANGED. I don't even see why it matters. If Mohammed was a pedophile, then that's his decision. HE STARTED A WHOLE RELIGION THAT IS THE SECOND BIGGEST IN THE WORLD. Just because he liked girls doesn't mean his accomplishements changed. Like I said before, maybe Hannibal was black, does it matter? NO!

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

Excuse me, I have found some article on the matter. I also found articles that say she was older.

Comparison of hadith of Aisha's age with hadith of Laylat al-Qadr, in which 1 was used for 21, 3 for 23, 5 for 25 and so on, suggest that maybe Aisha's reports were transmitted literally and 16 became 6 and 19 became 9, as it is a way of talking in Arabic language when base is already known

Muhammad is attributed to say, "A woman must be consulted and get her permission to make the marriage valid". According to another report, Aisha at the age of nine was rather more interested to play with toy-horses than to take up the responsible task of a wife. The permission of an immature girl cannot be a valid authorization for marriage.

Aisha is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an , was revealed, "I was a young girl".[32] The 54th Surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah.[33] According to this tradition, Aisha had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl, not even only an infant at that time. So if this age is assumed to be 7 to 14 years then her age at the time of marriage would be 16 to 23

According to almost all the historians, Asma bint Abu Bakr, the elder sister of Aisha, was ten years older than Aisha Asma is reported to die in the 73 AH, when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in the 73 AH, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of Migration to Medina (1 AH). If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at that time, Aisha should have been 17 or 18 years old at the same time. Thus, Aisha - if she got married in 1 AH or 2 AH - was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

[KARTLOS]

Do you have any evidence that he married a 6 year old? I do know it was normal back then because MOST EVERYONE DID IT. If it wasn't "OK" they wouldn't have done it. You seem to only reply to things I say that you can actually say something about. I haven't seen you agree with the fact that THINGS HAVE CHANGED. I don't even see why it matters. If Mohammed was a pedophile, then that's his decision. HE STARTED A WHOLE RELIGION THAT IS THE SECOND BIGGEST IN THE WORLD. Just because he liked girls doesn't mean his accomplishements changed. Like I said before, maybe Hannibal was black, does it matter? NO!

we are going around in circles here. yes - mohammed started a big religion.

does that mean he is automatically worthy of respect? not in my eyes, i judge a man by his deeds

he was a paedophile therefore i dont have any respect for his moral judgement. furthermore i find it hard to understand why people follow his teachings. why would anyone take advice on how to lead their life from someone who had sex with a 9yr old?

p.s i dont know why you are bringing hannibal into this. hannibal wasnt black but if he was it shouldnt make any difference to how people would judge him. being black is not a moral issue- it doesnt force you to question someones integrity, being a recorded paedophile IS a moral issue.

[KARTLOS]

Excuse me, I have found some article on the matter. I also found articles that say she was older.

yes there is some dispute. but the common consensus within Islam is for the ages of 6 and 9.

a little bit of reading around should confirm this for you.

this being the common consensus I again have to wonder - why is this acceptable to muslims?

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

we are going around in circles here. yes - mohammed started a big religion.

does that mean he is automatically worthy of respect? not in my eyes, i judge a man by his deeds

he was a paedophile therefore i dont have any respect for his moral judgement. furthermore i find it hard to understand why people follow his teachings. why would anyone take advice on how to lead their life from someone who had sex with a 9yr old?

p.s i dont know why you are bringing hannibal into this. hannibal wasnt black but if he was it shouldnt make any difference to how people would judge him. being black is not a moral issue- it doesnt force you to question someones integrity, being a recorded paedophile IS a moral issue.

So you don't respect a man who taught people in his life, brung a new religion and helped unify his people, because of ONE, let me point that out again, ONE thing. Right. You seem to neglect the fact of others doing the same thing in that time.

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

yes there is some dispute. but the common consensus within Islam is for the ages of 6 and 9.

a little bit of reading around should confirm this for you.

this being the common consensus I again have to wonder - why is this acceptable to muslims?

Well, why is it acceptable to Jews that Abraham had two wives and two sons? Even though a commandment says "Thou shall not commit adultery". Really, I believe Mohammed was not a pedophile. Yes I have read the articles, but am not swayed. Mostly because I can find evidence that counters this argument.

[KARTLOS]

So you don't respect a man who taught people in his life, brung a new religion and helped unify his people, because of ONE, let me point that out again, ONE thing. Right. You seem to neglect the fact of others doing the same thing in that time.

yes i dont respect him. this ONE thing you talk about is not a minor issue that can be easily swept under the carpet or forgotten about. i am sorry but i do not have any respect for paedophiles, he was an evil man.

i dont lack respect for mohammed "just" because he was a paedophile. there are many other aspects of his life that i would take issue with but i think this is the most sinister point and i would prefer to concentrate on this in this thread.

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

yes i dont respect him. this ONE thing you talk about is not a minor issue that can be easily swept under the carpet or forgotten about. i am sorry but i do not have any respect for paedophiles, he was an evil man.

i dont lack respect for mohammed "just" because he was a paedophile. there are many other aspects of his life that i would take issue with but i think this is the most sinister point and i would prefer to concentrate on this in this thread.

Evil man? He was a prophet! For God sake he was a holy man in Islam! Really I see alot of these critisms coming from people who aren't muslim, and neglect alot of arguments.

[KARTLOS]

no, he claimed t o be a prophet. it wouuld take apretty deranged almighty to choose a paedophile as his spokesmen

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

no, he claimed t o be a prophet. it wouuld take apretty deranged almighty to choose a paedophile as his spokesmen

Really. That was one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. I think he had revelations. "A pretty deranged almighty" chose a man who had two wives, two sons to be the first one to start Monotheism. You can find alot, ALOT, of sources saying he was a prophet. He didn't just "claim" to be one.

[KARTLOS]

Well, why is it acceptable to Jews that Abraham had two wives and two sons? Even though a commandment says "Thou shall not commit adultery". Really, I believe Mohammed was not a pedophile. Yes I have read the articles, but am not swayed. Mostly because I can find evidence that counters this argument.

you dont believe he was a paedophile? i can only asume this is because you find the idea uncomfortable.

yes there is some debate on the issue, but do you realise that the majority of muslims do accept the ages of 6 and 9 to be true?

i know wikipedia is far from infallible, but here is a link to a page on the issue

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha%27s_age_at_marriage

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

you dont believe he was a paedophile? i can only asume this is because you find the idea uncomfortable

No, I explained why I don't, you must reply to things YOU WANT TO REPLY TO. I don't find it uncomfortable because most everyone did it back then.

[KARTLOS]

Really. That was one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. I think he had revelations. "A pretty deranged almighty" chose a man who had two wives, two sons to be the first one to start Monotheism. You can find alot, ALOT, of sources saying he was a prophet. He didn't just "claim" to be one.

look i dont personally believe in god. just becuase someone is historicaly described as a prophet doesnt mean that they actually were in the true sense "conversing with god"

people call mohammed a prophet, but he is not a prophet to me (as an atheiest)

from a christian or jewish view point he is not considered a prophet either.

he is only a prophet to those who believe in his teaching = muslims.

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

look i dont personally believe in god. just becuase someone is historicaly described as a prophet doesnt mean that they actually were in the true sense "conversing with god"

people call mohammed a prophet, but he is not a prophet to me (as an atheiest)

from a christian or jewish view point he is not considered a prophet either.

he is only a prophet to those who believe in his teaching = muslims.

And you fail to grasp the other sides argument. So you don't believe in God, and say his prophets were pedophiles? I haven't seen you made one great point in this whole thing.

Again I don't think Mohammed was a pedophile.

[KARTLOS]

And you fail to grasp the other sides argument. So you don't believe in God, and say his prophets were pedophiles? I haven't seen you made one great point in this whole thing.

Again I don't think Mohammed was a pedophile.

what do you mean i havent made a point?

my point is - mohammed was a paedophile

i dont think many people are aware of this and i am interested to see what people think about this.


you on the other hand seem solely determined to defend the un-defendable.

[MSB]

It was common practice to, in those days, marry any random person just to produce a heir to take over the buisness or the land or the castle etc. You didn't have to love anybody to want to marry them.

Mohammed was not a paedophile. He was just an standard man that just happened to be a prophet.

I think this thread should be closed before we get race hate in here.

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

what do you mean i havent made a point?

my point is - mohammed was a paedophile

i dont think many people are aware of this and i am interested to see what people think about this.


you on the other hand seem solely determined to defend the un-defendable.

Un-defendable? Excuse me, I have defended this. This isn't "undefendable". It's fully defendable and I'm going to defend Mohammed because I know he wasn't a pedophile.