2 Hander Testing

[pevergreen]

I know a lot of people will avoid this thread because "2-hds are bugged" but if you download zxiang 2h fix at TWC, you'll think otherwise. Below are results of my in progress testing using the 2h fix.
All tests are on default settings, on grassy plain. Medium AI (dont see how vhard AI would help in making one charge)
Bill Militia vs Mounted Sarges
(GKI is General Killed on Impact)
The numbers represent individuals left at moment of rout or 0 for destroy before rout.
8 GKI 62
16 62
38 GKI 67
7 48
9 57

Billmen vs Mounted Sarges
Same conditions are before all units set up in default ranks and tight formation etc.
(GNK is General Not Killed before rout)
5 GNK 54
15 55
20 GKI 66
23 GKI 63
8 GNK 54

As these have been pretty bad, going to skip to Dismounted English Knights.

DEK MS
30 14 routed

DEK Knights Hospitaller
12 GKI 55

So far as I can see with zxiangs 2h fix, they dont overpower cav, but if moved into the side, or its not a perfect charge..If zxiangs gets spread round, we might see some Billmen around (not likely)


Those are the tests so far, more to come soon if anyone replies with the want/intrest in more.

[Zatoichi]

The trouble with the animation fix is that unless you completely nerf the attack and charge values of the 2-Handed units, they become awesome anti infantry units - a unit of Heavy Bill Militia which costs only 300 florins to recruit will decimate a unit of Gothic Foot Knights, costing 800. This can't be right.

Unfortunately, by messing with the stats so that the units play out better in real time conflicts, you are messing with the auto resolve stats, meaning that that battles the AI has independently of you will be affected. Coupled with this is the problem that the AI may not actually build any of these units if you've nerfed the stats down to a 'reasonable' level, especially if you've raised the cost of certain units to compensate for their new capabilities.

I've spent a few hours doing one-on-one battles with Dismounted English Knights v Dismounted Chivalric Knights, and billmen versus Dismounted Feudal Knights, and I think I've managed to get the stats about right - the DEKs end up with a primary attack of 13 and a charge of 1 - they still will win every battle if they charge the DCKs, but it's much closer if they are receiving the charge. The billmen have ended up with attack 8 and charge 1, and will lose to the knights but put up a decent show for themselves - they are anti-armour after all, but still a much lower cost/tier unit.

Unfortunately I just don't know how this will effect the campaign game if I'm not playing as the English - will the AI ever bother to build them?

Sad to say, I don't think there's a global easy fix for this until someone can mod the actual animations themselves. Or until CA release the next patch with their fix.

I think it's down to personal preference in the end - I'm happy with my rebalancing efforts in battles, but I'll have to play through a campaign or two to see if it's having a bad effect on the AI or not.

I did get to the point during my play testing where I was sure the existing animation problem with them not attacking cavalry was less of a pain than the new problem of them being uber killing machines, but after all the work I'd put in I didn't want to admit defeat!

[Jambo]

Give them the two handed sword animation. It's less fast and much less powerful than the default animation in the proper fix. Then you don't have to dismantle their stats to such an extreme.

[Zatoichi]

Give them the two handed sword animation. It's less fast and much less powerful than the default animation in the proper fix. Then you don't have to dismantle their stats to such an extreme.

Really?

GAH!

Well, there you have it ladies and gentlemen - the 2 Hander fix! I'll give it a go when I get back from work...

[Gray_Lensman]

Sounds like a great compromise idea. Any suggestions as to which 2-handed swordsman to use for the replacement soldier (animation)?

[katank]

Zweihander seems to be a popular choice.

[BigTex]

Just whatever you do, don't zoom in on the Varangian Guard with that animation on. But still better then the "Spin" animation. Also would suggest looking over this thread https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=74127 quite alot about the animations in there.

[Jambo]

Highland nobles or zweihander, I think they're both the same. There's only one animation which looks kind of funny and that's the one where the swordman stabs first then swings to the neck. The stab looks a big daft with an axe, but the swing to the neck looks fine so it passes. Apart from that all the others are fine.

[Ars Moriendi]

You know what I'd like to see, balancing-wise ?
A new stat added to all units, something like "attack speed" or "attack skill" that should reflect that unit's animation speed/effectiveness. That will be really helpfull both for the player (who'll be better informed about his soldiers potential before testing them in battle) and for the AI (who'll be better guided in selecting what to train and deciding the outcome of auto-calc battles more accurately).
This new stat shouldn't, of course, have any other effect on the battlefield.

I think something like this will make the balancing easier, bypassing some of the problems with the current stats/animation/cost system (see Zatoichi's post above for an example of a cause-effect chain propagating simple changes to other areas of the game).

The big problem is - I don't think a new stat could be added even by a patch, let alone modding. Maybe the next game engine.

[JFC]

I have to say I am amazed at the sheer amount of tweaking/downloading/modding/hunting around the forums for said downloads that I have had to do JUST to get the game to work as it was probably intended!

[Musashi]

You know what I'd like to see, balancing-wise ?
A new stat added to all units, something like "attack speed" or "attack skill" that should reflect that unit's animation speed/effectiveness. That will be really helpfull both for the player (who'll be better informed about his soldiers potential before testing them in battle) and for the AI (who'll be better guided in selecting what to train and deciding the outcome of auto-calc battles more accurately).
This new stat shouldn't, of course, have any other effect on the battlefield.

I think something like this will make the balancing easier, bypassing some of the problems with the current stats/animation/cost system (see Zatoichi's post above for an example of a cause-effect chain propagating simple changes to other areas of the game).

The big problem is - I don't think a new stat could be added even by a patch, let alone modding. Maybe the next game engine.

It would be better if they just standardized the attack speed of all animations, so that you could look at the stats and know which unit was better at a glance.

[sapi]

One thing i certainly agree on is that CA have got things backwards with animations.

Animations should arise as a result of kills, not the other way around. As it is the main factor in a unit's lethality is unknown to the player before battles, and having animations determine casualties has caused all sorts of problems :(

[Ars Moriendi]

It would be better if they just standardized the attack speed of all animations[...]

You mean - all units attacks having the exact same duration ? Having the big two-hander swing its weapon as fast as the archer's knife ? Not sure if I like it, and it doesn't look like the ways of MTW will be back any time soon, by the direction the TW games are evolving.

Animations should arise as a result of kills, not the other way around.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Kills aren't the result of animations. They're the result of one soldier attacking another. The animation is just the game engine's way of graphically showing it to you. It could've been just plain text, like: "Billmen hits knight for 2d4 damage. Knight attacks billmen and misses. Archer shoots at pikemen. Pikemen rolls 13 and evades...etc". The problem is that the actual duration of the animation affects the soldiers effectiveness (unlike in turn-based RPG tactical combat where the attack/defense is instantaneous, at the end of a round, although it may take some time for the results to be displayed, graphically or not) and this effect is not evident in the stats.

As it is the main factor in a unit's lethality is unknown to the player before battles, and having animations determine casualties has caused all sorts of problems

Thus my desire to see that "main factor" visibly quantised in a way that makes it easily grasped by the player and simple for the AI to understand and use.
I have seen such a stat as "attack speed" in various RPGs and it seems to work fine.

Anyways, it's kinda useless to fabulate about it, it won't happen too soon.

[Musashi]

You mean - all units attacks having the exact same duration ? Having the big two-hander swing its weapon as fast as the archer's knife ? Not sure if I like it, and it doesn't look like the ways of MTW will be back any time soon, by the direction the TW games are evolving.

It always seems like people who've never actually swung a two handed weapon think that you turn into a lumbering sloth the moment you have one in your hands. The actual truth is that the difference in time between slashing with a greatsword and slashing with a dagger is maybe a few microseconds. It's mostly a matter of how fast you can swing your arms... The weight of the weapon is nearly irrelevant unless you're trying to use something that is literally too heavy for you to lift and swing.

[Ars Moriendi]

It always seems like people who've never actually swung a two handed weapon think that you turn into a lumbering sloth the moment you have one in your hands. The actual truth is that the difference in time between slashing with a greatsword and slashing with a dagger is maybe a few microseconds. It's mostly a matter of how fast you can swing your arms... The weight of the weapon is nearly irrelevant unless you're trying to use something that is literally too heavy for you to lift and swing.

Most of our experience with weapons comes from videogames and it's true that the weights and their effect on the speed are greatly exagerated. Just look at any RPG on the market : 60lbs swords ??? I mean, c'mon, most people could barely lift, let alone do something useful with such a weight.

On the other hand, while the swing itself might be almost as fast with 2h weapons as with one-handed, the recovery time and range of movements is definitely affected by the blade/handle length, weight and distribution and the fact that you have two hands on it. Certainly more than "microseconds" (that's milionths of a second, I think you meant miliseconds)

Now, I've never used a sword, one or two handed. But I did use axes of almost all sizes - from small, meat chopping ones to the large tree felling variety ; and various big hammers. Seeing that in M2TW there are more axe/hammer two-handers than swords, I think my experience is rellevant.
As a matter of fact, your post (and my ever-growing belly) prompted me to remove my fat lazy arse from in front the computer, go outside and do some real-life tests with various implements I could find around, both to satisfy my curiosity and to get some much needed exercise. I could post the results, if anyone cares...

[dopp]

It always seems like people who've never actually swung a two handed weapon think that you turn into a lumbering sloth the moment you have one in your hands. The actual truth is that the difference in time between slashing with a greatsword and slashing with a dagger is maybe a few microseconds. It's mostly a matter of how fast you can swing your arms... The weight of the weapon is nearly irrelevant unless you're trying to use something that is literally too heavy for you to lift and swing.

Speaking of weight, try playing TES: Oblivion and getting your hands on 48lb Dremora Longswords... that's almost as much as some suits of plate armor.

[BlackAxe3001]

Now, I've never used a sword, one or two handed. But I did use axes of almost all sizes - from small, meat chopping ones to the large tree felling variety ; and various big hammers. Seeing that in M2TW there are more axe/hammer two-handers than swords, I think my experience is rellevant.
As a matter of fact, your post (and my ever-growing belly) prompted me to remove my fat lazy arse from in front the computer, go outside and do some real-life tests with various implements I could find around, both to satisfy my curiosity and to get some much needed exercise. I could post the results, if anyone cares...

I would be interested in your results. What did you find out?

[BigTex]

Most of our experience with weapons comes from videogames and it's true that the weights and their effect on the speed are greatly exagerated. Just look at any RPG on the market : 60lbs swords ??? I mean, c'mon, most people could barely lift, let alone do something useful with such a weight.

On the other hand, while the swing itself might be almost as fast with 2h weapons as with one-handed, the recovery time and range of movements is definitely affected by the blade/handle length, weight and distribution and the fact that you have two hands on it. Certainly more than "microseconds" (that's milionths of a second, I think you meant miliseconds)

Now, I've never used a sword, one or two handed. But I did use axes of almost all sizes - from small, meat chopping ones to the large tree felling variety ; and various big hammers. Seeing that in M2TW there are more axe/hammer two-handers than swords, I think my experience is rellevant.
As a matter of fact, your post (and my ever-growing belly) prompted me to remove my fat lazy arse from in front the computer, go outside and do some real-life tests with various implements I could find around, both to satisfy my curiosity and to get some much needed exercise. I could post the results, if anyone cares...

There's quite alot of difference between an axe and a 2hd sword. A good greatsword/cleavemore is going to be balanced right after the hand guard. While an axe is completely balanced at it's head. A fulcrum directly where your hands are means it's going to be easy and fast to move. You wont have the recovery time is very little. Also one should note that they werent that much heavier then a single handed bastard sword. Only 1-2 lb's more. The recovery time difference between a 2hd and a 1hd sword is very little. As most fighting techniques will show even 2hd swords are sometimes only used by one.

Still a danish axe rings it at an iffy 9 lbs (4.09 kilo). A 2 handed great sword rings in around 7 lb's (3.2 kilo's). Although you arent going to really feel much of the wieght in a good sword with proper balance.

[Blademun]

I think, if anything, soldiers that use two handed swords should become fatiqued more quickly. Sure, you can swing a greatsword pretty quickly the first time, but try swinging it about 50 times and check how you feel. I used to practice with different swords and axes and I couldn't fight with a greatsword very long(course, I'm a wee lil' man). There are other variables that weight affects besides just speed of your attack. It also affects accuracy. A large sword is alot harder to 'aim' mid-swing compared to a lighter Rapier or Katana. Its takes alot of energy to change the direction of that much mass once its been swung.

Well, a Katana is a unique story, since it has the weight of a longsword but is used in a two-handed style, which is the basis of its amazing abilities. The one sided nature allows it to be longer while maintaining similar strength charecteristics to a sword of its weight. The two handed wielding style reduces fatigue, allowing you to fight longer, and the light weight paired with the strength of two arms makes for very accurate cuts. Yeah, i'm a big fan of katanas (and other Japanese weaponry).

The advantage of the Zweihander is that its got a grip that goes beyond the guard. Gripping the sword by that area makes the sword move more quickly. Fighting with a Zweihander is really technical, because you switch between gripping it by the grip and by the flat edged portion of the blade, depending on what sort of attack you wanted to do. They also typically come with a enlarged hilt for counterweight effects, and as a blunt weapon that you could use when gripping the flat-edge. The whole point of giving it a flat edge holding area was to make the sword versatile, and capable of handling a variety of situations.

I still like the Katana more though.

[Burns]

The best fix is to make them cost double or triple their current cost.

[Gray_Lensman]

Actually, the best fix I have found is similar to Lusted's fix to replace the referenced animation file, but instead of using ME_Halberd_Militia as the replacement which overpowers almost all the 2H axes and necessitates a lot of stat changes to compensate, I used a 2H swordsman (Highland_Nobles)instead and everything seems to be a lot more balanced without a lot of stat modifications. Admittedly, not perfect, but a lot more satisfactory to me, in the testing I have done.

[Ars Moriendi]

There's quite alot of difference between an axe and a 2hd sword [...] Although you arent going to really feel much of the weight in a good sword with proper balance.

That's entirely correct, but I wasn't arguing against that. Rememeber we're talking about animation speed for two-handers in the M2TW game. The fact that swords can be as fast two-handed as one-handed has less of an impact (in the game) than the dynamics of axe/hammer type weapons. Why ? Take a look at this :

Two-handed sword units in M2TW : 4

Forlorn Hope
ZweiHander
Dismounted Gothic Knight
Highland Nobles

Two-handed axe/hammer units : 18

Billmen (x4)
Voulgier (x2)
Halberd Militia
Dismounted English Knight
Dismounted Noble Knight
Dismounted Portuguese Knight
Venetian Heavy Inf
Janissary Heavy Inf
Varangian Guard
Swiss Guard
Tabardariyya
Galloglaich
Obudshaer
Berdiche Axemen
Norse Axemen
Croat Axemen
Woodsmen
Transylvanian Peasants

I might have missed some units, but the trend is clear.

[Ars Moriendi]

I would be interested in your results. What did you find out?

Ok then, here it is :

First, the tools o' destruction :



Test method : I tried to see how many hits I could apply within 20 seconds, swinging as fast as I could. Smaller axes were used one-handed, the bigger one (no.3) and the hammer - two handed.

Note - the weights listed below are approximative, as I don't have a way to measure them exactly. They're pretty accurate, though, as I compared the tools with different household items the weights of which were known.


1. Small meat axe - one handed. Weight 0.4-0.5 kg (~1 lb). Length 32 cm. Speed 25-30 hits in 20 seconds, avg. 1.4 hits/sec.
This one is small but easy to use, and I think it would make an excellent weapon versus not too heavily armoured opponents.

2. Small wood axe - one handed. Weight 0.9-1.1 kg (~2 lbs). Length 47 cm. Speed 19-24 hits in 20 seconds, avg. 1.1 hits/sec.
I think this is about the right size for a one handed battle axe.

3. Big wood axe - two handed. Weight 3-3.5 kg (~7 lbs). Length 91 cm. Speed 12-14 hits in 20 seconds, avg. 0.65 hits/sec.
Probably accurate enough a representation of a two-handed battle axe, although those seem to usually have longer handles and wider heads.

3. Heavy hammer - two handed. Weight 11-13 kg (~26 lbs). Length 87 cm. Speed 6-8 hits in 20 seconds, avg. 0.35 hits/sec.
Much too heavy for a weapon, I included it for comparison only.


A big issue was how long you can actually swing such weapons. With no.1, I felt like I could hack forever. No.2 got my hand somewhat tired in 20 seconds. With no.3 I definitely needed some rest after testing. With the hammer, well, I nearly fainted after 2 test runs.

Finally, as you've probably guessed, I'm not any kind of athlete. I'm also below average in size and strength. There's no doubt a trained medieval soldier would go at it much faster & longer than me. But this is hardly rellevant for the purpose of this test, which wasn't to see the absolute speed of the weapons, but their relative "rate of fire".

[gardibolt]

I have a well-balanced two-handed sword, and while the thing is very heavy, once you have it up and poised it swings quite easily; the momentum it generates is substantial. I doubt you'd want to swing it all day though.

[Musashi]

Yes but if you look at those tests, you'll see the difference is not huge. If you look at the standard 2h axe animation in play, they are easily 10 times slower than even two handed sword units. They're that bad.