Military Academy, the gathering of .ORG strategic minds

[Ar7]

I remember that during the first MTW there were many posts discussing the most universal and verstaile army compositions and the best or innovative ways to use them. It was interesting to read how others plan their battles, how they use various troop types or siege castles etc. I know I learned a lot from those threads and I would like to resurrect them.

I will begin by saying that I know that there is no best army, there are different types for different enemies. Yet the most verstaile army can be created, one that will be able to do well with most foes. So please, post your favourite composition, the preferred tactics etc. Maybe in time we will be able to come up with the most efficient catholic and muslim army.

[Bijo]

It all comes down to a mix of big strategic thinking and smaller tactical thinking. They must be combined into a powerful tool to use.

Strategy: attack the weakest; attack those nearby; outnumber the enemy; attack when it suits you; have backup plans or prevent disturbance of your plans.
Example: if you besiege a settlement have an extra army near to repel any relieving forces, so you can starve out the city/caste. When they sally out, make sure you have good missiles to defend, making any approach useless.

If you plan to conquer somebody, prepare a superior fleet blocking their sea trade to damage their income. Do them all at once and they will suffer.

If possible, move armies in coordination with each other: one offensive army and one defensive. When conquering all over mainland have more armies ready and move in coordination with each other to reinforce and flank if necessary.

Divide and rule. Destroying little pieces and chunks of the enemy will wear them down in the end.

Sometime to attack is to defend. Sometimes to defend is to attack.


Regarding tactics it'll be more about battles themselves of course, but I can't say much about it, 'cause the player would have to react to the enemy's action and vice versa - it can be different any time.

My personal favorite army setup:
-General
-Heavy Infantry (mainline)
-Spears (guard flanks against cavalry)
-Heavy Cavalry (each side to flank/rear mainline, or to repel enemy cavalry, then move to mainline and rear)
-Long range missiles: archers and artillery to inflict as much damage as possible

Defensively, with this setup you can do a lot in my opinion, if the enemy approach. And offensively, you can do a lot too. You can fight a mainline battle and flank, repel cavalry, and shoot down annoying missile cavalry with your archers.


Strategically, always pick the best position (hilltop, end of a bridge defending, etc.) to give you advantage. I once had my Pavise X-bowmen atop a HIGH hill as my crusading army marched forth to engage the enemy. Their missiles continuously flanked the enemy. Also, it'll be useless for them to try to approach these missiles, as they're too far, and their stamina will be drained.
Tactically, hiding units at trees is a good move too. I once surprised the enemy turning the tides with a quick heavy cavalry charge into their flanks.


That's all I can think of for now.

[General Zhukov]

This is my first TW game, and I have combat experience playing Spain and Egypt in long campaigns.

My first observation is: Stamina is the most important attribute a unit can have. Running, fighting, and shooting all drain stamina, and stamina directly relates to how long your forces can effectively fight. A good example of a unit that benefits from this is the Egyptian Desert Cavalry; a javelin skirmisher that combines the Fast Moving and Very Good Stamina traits with the armor piercing quality of javelins. This unit can literally run circles around all heavy cavalry and foot troops; it has the ability to stay practically in constant motion for the whole battle, ensuring most incoming missle fire will miss and that the unit can be exactly where you need it, fast.

My second observation is: mobility is king. A combined arms force of mostly foot troops with cavalry support is inferior to an all cavalry force in open terrain. This is the Mongol Lesson. It is especially apparent when you realize that some factions can field combined arms all cavalry armies. A good example is my current campaign as the Egyptians. I fight with a rather simple 3 unit type stack: 8-10 Mamluk Archers (HAs with Good Morale, Good Stamina), 4-5 Mamluks (Heavy Cav. with Good Morale, Good Stamina), 4-6 Desert Cavalry (AP javelins, Fast Moving, Very Good Stamina) and the General. This army has massive missle firepower that softens or destroys many of the enemy units before melee begins. The Desert Cav. lurks on the edges of battle waiting for enemy heavy cav. to emerge, or, if they lack it, swarms in to pepper the heavy infantry. A good 75% of the army is horse skirmishers, which will automatically run from any melee units, firing parthian shots. The remaining bloc of Mamluks awaits the opportune moment to crash into weakened enemy lines. This stack includes no infantry or artillery, so its movement range is maximzed on the campaign map. One such stack has soundly defeated many crusader armies with minimal reinforcements needed after battles.

Third observation: It could be beneficial to have a dedicated siege stack. I am preparing such a stack as the Egyptians for my invasion of central Europe. A majority heavy infantry, with some foot archers and strong cannons should be able to take any settlement. Crucially, my cavalry swarms that will deal with enemy field armies are not encumbered by the heavy cannon.

A further word about the Mamluk cavalry army. One of its best features is that it negates the utility of enemy spears and heavy infantry; such troops are not going to play a role in deciding the battle unless it's to soak up arrows. There are then two types of troops to be concerned about: cavalry and missle troops. Really, all the Mamluk forces are effective against cavalry, with the Desert Cavalry being the best at countering armor. As for enemy missle troops, it will come down to atrittion and who can put the most arrows in the air in the shortest time. Fortunately, 10 units of HAs merry-go-rounding in front of the enemy line can lay down lots of fire.

[Herkus]

You don't need strategy to win the battles in TW games since RTW.

[katank]

Like Bijo, I'd say an Eastern army with horse archers and lancer, with maybe some javelin cav mixed in will be the best in a field battle. Bring along an inf/arty stack for siege assault. If you have lots of spies, the cav can rush through open gates just fine also.

Best factions for this are Russians, Egyptians, Turks, and the Byz. Poles and Hungarians deserve some mention also. Mongols and Timurids are unfortunately nonplayable.

[metatron]

You don't need strategy to win the battles in TW games since RTW.

True. :(

[Bearclaw]

I was just thinking of starting a thread like this.

Battlefield Tactics: I have experience as Sicily and Turks.

My best Catholic army (for conquering) consisted of approximately 12-14 of the heaviest knights possible and the rest heavy dismounted knights, or sword and buckler men for cost effectiveness. This is a pretty expensive army, which hurt me financially, but it was the army I wanted in the field and ended up being worth it. Going into battle, my strategy was the same on offense or defense: form a long line with my cavalry in front and infantry just behind, and then slowly approach the enemy/wait for him to approach depending on the situation. When I was close enough, I single-clicked all of my cavalry at the same time, and the mass charge would usually rout anything it touched immediately, which usually meant all of his front-line infantry, and usually would carry over into his cavalry and archers, routing them as well. As I ordered my cavalry to charge, I'd have my heavy foot charge as well. If my initial charge didn't finish the battle in one strike, I'd pull my cavalry out of melee just in time for my foot knights to hit his broken formations. No army ever stood past this part of the battle, and I would then use my cavalry to take prisoners.

Some notes:
-Obviously this strategy loses a lot of its strength in mountains or heavy forest. Still, a double-click charge will work in any terrain and will deal sufficient casualties to give your dismounted knights a serious advantage. Plus, you'll have all that heavy cavalry to flank with.
-I very rarely had to use my infantry. I would almost say go with more heavy cavalry, but any more would really be overkill, and I like having something to form a defensive wall on the battlefield in case the impossible happens, and infantry is definitely a must to have with you in case your army is besieged.
-You may have noticed I didn't use any archers. Personally, I feel that archers are a luxury in most Catholic armies, unless you're England or Milan. On offense, the enemy will probably match your missile strength with their archers and artillery, plus a better position, so skirmishing with archers first usually results in more losses on your side. On defense, archers can be very useful in cutting down on the enemy's numbers, which saves your infantry from high casualties-this, I feel, is the main purpose of archers. But in an army that aims to rout the enemy quickly with one or two strong blows, archers wouldn't have enough time to make a difference and would only get in the way.

My best Turkish army (for conquering) was 15 Sipahis, 4 Qapukulu and a general. This army destroys its enemies and takes very few losses. Basically, just order your horse archers into positions surrounding the enemy and let them fire away. Sipahis can alt+click charge very well, especially when you use two or more units from several directions: this often results in 100% casualties against even the heaviest units almost immediately. The Qapukulu are extremely heavy and can help out against anything that pesters your horse archers. I have several of these armies roaming around in my Turkish campaign, and they can fight forever and not need retraining.

Notes:
-The AI for your horse archers will automatically target the nearest missile unit because it poses an immediate threat. In most of my battles, my horse archers have been sufficient to overpower and quickly incapacitate the enemy's archers, so that rarely becomes a problem. The only thing that has forced my hand and stopped me from destroying the enemy with arrows is artillery, particularly catapults. Ballistae don't kill enough troops to be worth charging, and trebuchet aren't accurate enough, but catapults can cause some heavy casualties, especially with flaming ammo, which will kill any troops it touches before it explodes-I've had several cases where the rock landed in the very back of my formation, killing several horses on impact, but also cut a trail through my entire formation. To counter this, you can use units (either horse archers or Qapakulu) from both flanks to hit-and-run, but the enemy's cavalry is usually nearby and will jump on you. Depending on how threatening the enemy's missile attack is, and how threatening their melee forces are, it can be a better option to just surround his army and order everyone to charge. This will result in higher than average casualties, but nothing too devastating-so many horses charging at once, supported by your heavy cavalry, will quickly rout the entire army,which will then be captured.
-This army moves very quickly on the campaign map as well as the battlefield, so they can be used to hit-and-run or just to defend a larger area than an infantry army could.
-This army is extremely fun to watch but can also be slow. It's so much fun to watch the storm of arrows from every direction laying waste to a unit in seconds, with all the little blood bursts and everything. The "enemy general killed" cutscenes are usually hilarious, because he gets hit by 20+ arrows as he falls over to die. However, it's a little slower than a straight Christian heavy cavalry charge.

Campaign Map strategies will come later.

[Blademun]

You don't need strategy to win the battles in TW games since RTW.

So very True...

The AI in STW/MTW would never let me get away with the things I do in MTW2. Like how now I can run 6 units of Heavy cavalry right around behind their lines, taking time to face them up, and then charge them into their rear, without the AI ever trying to counteract...even during the charge itself. STW may have featured suicide charges up huge hills facing superior, entrenched troops..but hey, for the Japanese that was a pretty common strategy anyway so I didn't mind.

Er, I'm rambling, anyway...as for my strategys, I like to keep it extremely simple:

1. Agressiveness wins wars.

2. Don't fear the AI. The AI is dumb as Dirt. Even if the Odds look bad, you may come away with a Heroic Victory.

3. Money, Money, Money. Its all about the Florins. Use the Auto-Tax, Take a Crusade as a chance to go Sacking every town from Alleppo to Cairo(leaving the town behind next turn). Use your money to make more money by investing heavily in trade, farming and ports. You don't need super armourers and top tier stables. You need Florins..and the rest will fall into place.

4. Oh, and lastly, keep his popeyness happy. He is a pain in the **** but excommunication is a major drag.

__________________________________

With those ideas in mind, I can play just about any faction with success. As far as battlefield tactics, I am in the Cavalry camp. I've always had the most success with cavalry. I particularly like Hungarys Cavalry line up. It has a great mix of Heavy Cav and Cav Archers. The only infantry I ever use are their Bosnian archers, which can take down spears/militia in melee.

My Hungarian Lineup:

Magyars/Nobles: They are fast, are as good as any nations cav archers(russia, Byzantine, ect) and they are -cheap-. It doesn't kill your budget to field a army heavy with these guys, which is the best point for me. These guys always make up the majority of my army.

Bosnian Archers: I like having a set of infantry archers to serve as a 'base of operations' from where I can run my cavalry body out from and back to again after they've run out of arrows. The foot archers of course are ontop of a big hill, that the enemy will have to march up under yet more (fire)arrows...Only to be charged down by...

Hussars: HUSSARS! *ahem* sorry..that is just a great name. They are the poor mans heavy cav, and they're fast to top it off. Their stats are similar to a Feudal Knight, with a slightly weaker charge. The best thing about them is that they can be trained from citys. Granted, they have to be Huge Citys, but by mid game you should have as many Huge citys as you do Citadels. Oh, and they are cheap.

Lastly: Serpentines; they don't come into the game early enough to have a big effect, usually by the time I have them I've pretty much already won the game. In my custom battles they've served me well. Their morale hit is as big as their actual kill potiential. They force the enemy to take initiative; they can't camp under Serpentine Fire. Cannons + Fire Arrows + Cavalry Charge = Rout.

[Ars Moriendi]

I like tuna. I mean, I really love it, only cats beat me to it. It's healthy and nutritious too. I could it eat it straight out of the can, raw, anytime. But it's even better when you mix in some remoulade sauce, sprinkle a tad of black pepper, squeeze a lime and add some black olives plus some onion thinly sliced and pre-marinated in vinegar. It's probably less healthy with the mayo, onions and spices but much better tasting.
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You certainly wonder how much further offtopic I could possibly drift, but this tuna thing actually has a strong similitude (sp?) with the mixing and combining of troops on M2 battlefields. Whenever I see "whatz da best troops?" questions I feel a sudden itch I can never really scratch. The previous posters all had some really interesting and informed advice about unit combinations, stack building and usage. Still, almost everyone focuses on maximising effectiveness and combat power, and I only seldom see people trying to maximize fun and "colour".
Well, to add my (self-admitedly worthless ) contribution, I'll just say "just use whatever makes you enjoy the battles the most" and "try something new each time, even if you know it's not the most effective" and "enjoy surprises, tried and tested becomes boring after a while".

In my last campaign as the Byzantines, from what I can tell so far, the strongest army I could possibly build was 12-14 vardariotai plus a tough core of 6-7 katas. Based on my playing experience, this stack would pwn the battlefield. Did I ever built such ? Nope. While the HAs are fun to ride and the katanks simply rule, I find at least as much enjoyment in seeing the little foot soldiers stab with their swords, the spears bracing for impact, the Varangians hauling their big-@$$ axes and the Byz. Guards lowering their bows to charge in melee as a last, desperate attempt to hold the line. In my modded game, the dismounted latinkon somehow managed to have lower stats and higher upkeep and training building requirements than byz. infantry. They're also further from the frontline, since I only ever keep 3 castles and my cities are all large enough for byz.inf. to be trained. Absolutely no practical reason for them to exist. Well, colour me stupid, but I still train the latinkons, just for "local colour".

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If you taken notice of my tuna "recipe" above you must have seen that it doubles the cost and preparation time of a tuna fish meal, while not really adding anything nutrition-wise. I do the same with my armies - enhancing enjoyment.

Ok, that's it. I'm going now, I have to pop a tuna can, all this rambling made me hungry.

[katank]

It's true. Part of the fun is in experimenting with different units. While as the Turks I found the ultimate stack in Siphais with Qapakulu and Turkomen support, I still like to mess with hashashim and naffatun.

It puts a little smile on my face when I pull off a funky little ambush and charge my hashashim into an enemy's back only to be surrounded and cut to pieces or when the naffatun accidentally blows up my own general. I even build azabs for hilarity purposes.

After all the little accidents, you may find niche uses for the units. For example, a few units of hashashim wandering around does very well in autocalc vs. rebels and cuts down on late game tedium. Naffatun are amazing at nuking elephants when you get it right, etc.

[Bijo]

Those Naffatun are those "missile" troops, if I remember, right? They throw those "Molotov forgoers?" Haven't seen them in a while, but used them couple weeks ago. They were very vulnerable, though their weapon is formidable, if used right. If they can do their business undisturbed, man, I make the enemy rout as fast as people in a burning building.



Regarding strategies and tactics, I would refer any serious person who's interested in warfare to Sun Tzu: http://www.chinapage.com/sunzi-e.html
The information could very well be used for a series like TW.


I quote some personal favorites:

17. Thus we may know that there are five essentials
for victory:
(1) He will win who knows when to fight and when
not to fight.
(2) He will win who knows how to handle both superior
and inferior forces.
(3) He will win whose army is animated by the same
spirit throughout all its ranks.
(4) He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take
the enemy unprepared.
(5) He will win who has military capacity and is
not interfered with by the sovereign.

18. Hence the saying: If you know the enemy
and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a
hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy,
for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.
If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will
succumb in every battle.
-------------
17. In respect of military method, we have,
firstly, Measurement; secondly, Estimation of quantity;
thirdly, Calculation; fourthly, Balancing of chances;
fifthly, Victory.
-------------
10. In battle, there are not more than two methods
of attack--the direct and the indirect; yet these two
in combination give rise to an endless series of maneuvers.
-------------
17. For should the enemy strengthen his van,
he will weaken his rear; should he strengthen his rear,
he will weaken his van; should he strengthen his left,
he will weaken his right; should he strengthen his right,
he will weaken his left. If he sends reinforcements everywhere,
he will everywhere be weak.

[Ars Moriendi]

Regarding strategies and tactics, I would refer any serious person who's interested in warfare to Sun Tzu: http://www.chinapage.com/sunzi-e.html
The information could very well be used for a series like TW.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but the TW series is indeed inspired from the works of Sun Tzu.

From Wikipedia :

"In the 2000 PC game Shogun: Total War, text from The Art of War is quoted often during gameplay and its strategies recommended by the computer to the human players."

[Bijo]

Never played Shogun TW.... *deep shame* I was thinking of getting it, though. Just to experience the goodness that people spoke of about this game.

[Shahed]

You can still buy it and I believe you can run it using the advice in the Sword Dojo.

It's the game that got it all started and it has fundamentals that the rest of the TW series is still struggling to regain.

[IrishArmenian]

I have most of my battle experience as Russia and that allowed me to field the most versatile armies in the game (Russia is incredibly flexible: heavy infantry, heavy calvary, light calvary, heavy horse archers, dismounted heavy archers but I digress) Besides my general my armies normally were quite balanced in my mind. I used 3/12 Heavy Horse Archers who double as my heavy Calvary, 2/12 Horse Archers, 1/12 Javelin Calvary, 3/12 Heavy Archers who can also fight in close combat (Dismounted Dvor and Janisarry infantry are the only ones in game, I believe) and 3/12 Heavy Infantry.
Also, I have come up with a few guidlines.
Raid the areas of highest fertility in enemy regions with missile calvary because when an enemy attacks you, you can cause casualties in battle and then withdraw very fast!
As long as you keep your mind on the war of attrition, you should win.
Ambush, hide in trees at most chokepoints, enemies should wander by.
Build forts at chokepoints!

[Bijo]

More advice on strategy:

Not just battle tactics, but strategically know what's going on. I always have spies and towers everywhere: in my settlements; at borders; in enemy settlements; neutral settlements, and so on. Then you can minimize your military costs by effectively countering the enemy armies.

Logistics: unless you have some army able to continuously conquer lands, it's good to replenish your forces along the road. I'd stop once in a while or let another army take over.




Sinan, I think I will. I saw it for sale at this internet shop for €6 or so. But I was wondering if there's also like an edition that has both the original and the expansion, and everything else. Something like RTW Gold Edition. I saw this Warlord Edition, but haven't seen any good description of it anywhere.

[Shahed]

Warlord edition is both STW and STW: Mongol Invasion.

Be sure to do some searches and have a look through the Sword Dojo for the most hassle free version (although you can't lose much for 6Euro).

[Bijo]

Thanks, Sinan. Checked out the forum and internet. Saw the Warlord Edition for €15, and the Gold Edition for €6. The release dates said, for Warlord 2001, and for Gold 2006, so I got the last one, seeing as I also don't have to patch it (so it seems).



More advice on strategy while I'm here:
A nice way to defeat the opponent is while you do it the sneaky dirty way. I like to play like this, because it can save you some expensive military funding. It's a non-violent way of fighting, using spies and assassins. I use them as they come in handy taking care of the enemy while you're not at war with them. Eventually, when they're severely weakened by your dirty strategy, you might decide to march in and take over the scattered remnants using typical military methods of course.

Here is a nice guide by Braedonnal: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=75937

I would've written one myself on this, but he beat me to it :P