Why no Elephants!!???!?!?

[Fondor_Yards]

Wasn't Hannibal's personal elephant *Syrus or whatever it's name was* an indian elephant?

[[cF]HanBaal]

Sources? Because I seem to recall a recent conversation I had with an historian about this supposed Syrian elephant and its existence (or lack thereof)...

Wasn't Hannibal's personal elephant *Syrus or whatever it's name was* an indian elephant?

Ancient sources are limited to what subspecies existed and were used, afaik. Here's an interesting link about it supporting the existence Syrian subspecies and with some evidences to support it:

http://nabataea.net/elephants.html

"However, in more recent years it has been shown that there was a species known as the North Africa elephant, which was common in North Africa in Polybius' day but is now extinct. This species measures about 2.35 meters at the shoulder, whereas the Indian measures just under 3 meters and the African bush type about 3.5 meters, and the Syrian may have reached 3.6 meters or more.
...
while one of Hannibal's elephants was known as "Sarus," which means 'the Syrian'. This elephant was very large and was the outstanding animal in the elephant battle squadron.
...
The Syrian Elephant
This species of elephant lived in Iran and Syria. Early drawings of the animal and fragmentary skeletal remains indicate that it was the largest subspecies of the Asian elephant. The war elephants employed by Pyrrhus in 255 BC and engraved upon Roman seals show animals of unusual size. "Sarus," which signified "the Syrian," was the outstanding animal in the elephant battle squadron of the Carthaginian general Hannibal.

Ancient Syrian craftsmen made ivory carvings out of the tusks of the elephants that lived on the Syrian steppe but by 100 BC this craft died out. Hippopotamus teeth were also a source of ivory for Syrian craftsmen. The hippopotamus was another animal that at one time lived on Syrian territory, along the Mediterranean coast, but it, too, had been hunted into extinction. Hippopotamus ivory was whiter than that obtained from elephants and was therefore more highly valued. In Syria, the production of ivory objects reached its apex at the beginning of the first millennium BC, when the Aramaeans made splendid ivory inlay for furniture; the disappearance of the elephant from Syrian territory was a consequence of the growth of this craft and the popularity of its luxury product."

so, considering Karthadast conditions to breed their own elephants *300 garages*, I believe they should be able to recruit in their homeland not only the smaller African Bush elephants but also possibly imported/captured either Indian elephants (just like Epirus and the Ptolomies at some point in history), the giant Syrian ones (Sarus, Hannibal's personal giant, being the living proof) or even African Plains elephants (the less supported with evidences but not that farfetched considering the Karthadastim for centuries made documented subsaharan trips).

Thx

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

But if you make it possible to have indian elephant in Epirus, Egypt, and Carthage because they breed them, wouldn't that open a flood gate? If playing EB is a alternate retelling of history, then say Carthage conquered all of Iberia and Arveni conquered all of Gaul and became a big power, they could have built breeding garages for elephants they bought from Carthage. Or say there is some charasmatic consol of Rome who fought elephants and decided to import them and breed them within Rome itself.

But of course there is the arguement to set everything up as it was in 272BC and ignore actual and/or possible future changes. (ala Carthago Nova)

[[cF]HanBaal]

But of course there is the arguement to set everything up as it was in 272BC and ignore actual and/or possible future changes. (ala Carthago Nova)

Exactly. And that is EB's prerrogative from the start.

[Kull]

so, considering Karthadast conditions to breed their own elephants *300 garages*, I believe they should be able to recruit in their homeland not only the smaller African Bush elephants but also possibly imported/captured either Indian elephants (just like Epirus and the Ptolomies at some point in history), the giant Syrian ones (Sarus, Hannibal's personal giant, being the living proof) or even African Plains elephants (the less supported with evidences but not that farfetched considering the Karthadastim for centuries made documented subsaharan trips).

You really need to bring more research to the table here. Something that proves the existence of these garages, the text of the treaty which prohibits Carthage from breeding them, etc. Frankly the existence of a single "Syrian" elephant is hardly proof of a breeding program. It could just as easily have been a single animal procured through the Seleucids or Epeirote.

[Zaknafien]

Well Carthage's massive wall system did indeed have such "garages", though these most likely served more of a garrisoning and organizational feature for armies including elephants than any breeding program.

[Iskandr]

I hope this isn't too far off the subject of Carthaginian elephants, but do the Seluekids get any, or do they have to push further East than their starting cities? They can recruit African elephants, way down the Red Sea coast...

Thanks,
Iskandr

[[cF]HanBaal]

You really need to bring more research to the table here. Something that proves the existence of these garages, the text of the treaty which prohibits Carthage from breeding them, etc. Frankly the existence of a single "Syrian" elephant is hardly proof of a breeding program. It could just as easily have been a single animal procured through the Seleucids or Epeirote.

About the walls, at least Appian of Alexandria wrote about them (and the elies garages):
http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/appian/..._punic_19.html

and the mainland, where the citadel of Byrsa stood on the isthmus, there was a triple wall. The height of each wall was fifteen meter without counting parapets and towers, which were separated from each other by a space of 60 meter, and each was divided into four stories. The depth was ten meter.
Each wall was divided vertically by two vaults, one above the other. In the lower space there were stables for 300 elephants, and alongside were receptacles for their food. Above were stables for 4,000 horses and places for their fodder and grain. There were barracks also for soldiers, 20,000 foot and 4,000 horse.

About the text of the treaty, it imposed to Carthage 10.000 talents, her navy was limited to 10 ships to ward off pirates, and she was forbidden from raising any army without Rome's permission... that included war elephants of course.

Finally, about "the existence of a single syrian elephant", i underline that was the last surviving elephant of Hannibal's army. Doesn't mean it was the ONLY one! And if you could have such a beast (at least) wouldn't you go for more than one? If you were a general and co-leader of one of the most prosperous and developed nations in the world wouldn't you go for a 3.6m tank rather than a 2.35m? Of course I can't affirm with certainty they were breeding them instead of buying them, but neither can u say the contrary. Seems a very long route to transport such beasts regularly, especially considering their refusal to enter boats. Adding to that, the need to domesticate the animals from their youth and the 300 garages (when no more than 100 elephants were ever recorded to been used...Hannibal only took 37 from the start) make more sense to me that they were breeding and training them in Karthadast.

On a side note, Epirus is able to train Indian elephants right? Based on what historical data? I mean, historically, they bought them adults, bought them young and trained them, or they breed them in some city?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Sorry to revive a dead thread, but with the number of elephant based threads, I didn't want to start a new one. This is kind of a bug report too.

I have noticed that for the Romans (and this may be for others too) that there are no elephants in the regional MIC. The elephants are instead in the "B level" faction MIC, so if you want elephants you have to wait until the Marian reforms, build a typeII in numidia and then build at least three levels of "Roman Barracks".

I believe this to be a bug and they weren't transfered over when the new MIC system was built. The same problem exsists for Polybian seige weapons: they exsist in the factional MIC, though you cannot build the MIC in any place with the required hidden_resource(s).

[Tellos Athenaios]

@[cF]HanBaal & others '(seemingly) feeling attacked',

Pleas don't.

@[cF]HanBaal in particular,

I've never seen a source that indicates a breeding programme; I have however seen sources that explicitly state such breeding programmes did not exist & that eventually (during the Roman times) they kinda ran out of elephants in the wild... This is, of course, not from the 'horse's mouth'...

AFAIK: the Carthies got their elephants from the wild, and then trained them and 'stored' them in Carthage & surroundings itself.

So, if you have, post them because you've made me curious.

On Epeirote Elephants: didn't the kingdom simply buy them, have them shipped to their realm, and continue training them? I'm not an expert on this subject though, I only *know* that Epeiros fielded elephants in it's war in Italy.

[Pintaphilly]

Off-topic question:
Can i use Hannibal in EB, if so, wich faction is he in?

[MiniMe]

2 Tellos Athenaios:
On Epeirote Elephants:
They were going to breed them
Pyrros bought some younglings, went to Argos afterwards and there, you know
end of Epeirote "struggle for power" story

[Kull]

Sorry to revive a dead thread, but with the number of elephant based threads, I didn't want to start a new one. This is kind of a bug report too.

I have noticed that for the Romans (and this may be for others too) that there are no elephants in the regional MIC. The elephants are instead in the "B level" faction MIC, so if you want elephants you have to wait until the Marian reforms, build a typeII in numidia and then build at least three levels of "Roman Barracks".

I believe this to be a bug and they weren't transfered over when the new MIC system was built.

It's hard for me to go back and confirm the way things were set up in V.80, but the new v.81 recruitment allows Romani to recruit Forest Elephants (their only elephant unit) out of the Regional MICs only.

The same problem exsists for Polybian seige weapons: they exsist in the factional MIC, though you cannot build the MIC in any place with the required hidden_resource(s).

Siege weapons are a bit trickier. In the Polybian era they can recruit Greek Siege weapons using Faction MICs (and only in a small number of provinces). Normally these units would be available from Regional MICs (since they aren't "native Roman"), but to make them obsolete we had to put them in the Faction MICs. I can assure you that romans should be able to build at least Type2 Govs in most of those provinces and then build the MIC4s that make two of the siege weapons recruitable. There may be an issue with province locations and the ability to build the Type1 that enables the MIC5. I'll have to look at that further.

In the Marian and Augustan eras the Roman siege weapons become available, and the big difference between those two eras is a dramatic extension in the recruitment zone following the Augustan Reform.

Hope that helps!