Thanks - praise and chat

[Irinami]

Nakamura-dono,

You wonder about how common firearms were in Sengoku-jidai. They became a tool of growing importance throughout the era, although as I recall they were not the backbone of any Sengoku army. Sengoku-jidai more or less ends about the same time of the Thirty Years' War in the Holy Roman Empire (Germany). Count Tilly stuck to the old 3:1 pikemen:musketeers used in the 1500's; something between 3:1 and 1:1 was the norm, while the Swedes were pushing a 1:2 to 1:4 ratio or more. My point is, even in contemporary Europe firearms were only the backbone of just one major army, which was still reliant on the pikes. So I doubt they would be any more utilized in Nippon.

The historical advantage to firearms, as I recall, is first and foremost their simplicity of operation. A "gonne" (the old term for gun, I use it as a catchall for muskets, teppo, etc. etc.) requires just the training of loading and firing. With a bow, the operation gets more complex--there's some bit of aiming in there. Yes, you can aim a gonne too, but it's not reliably accurate. So you need either a gonne capable of firing several shots at once, or several gonners firing at once.

The stronger the bow, the stronger the archer; if you need to deal with armored opponents, your archer is going to be a significantly trained soldier, and will need more than a diet of gruel. The bow itself is somewhat complex, and each one is something of a work of art--the bow is not a flaw-tolerant system. The gonne, on the other hand, lends itself more easily to mass production, and gains much less from training (other than discipline) compared to the bow. The gonne is more tolerant of flaws for two reasons: The operator is a replaceable peasant, and as long as the weapon makes a little ball go out the same end the operator is looking every time the operator makes it go "bang," then it's working.

You know what would be cool? What if you don't hire ronin in your cities? Wouldn't that cause trouble to the province? All those loose cannon would breed banditry in a location. I wonder if that's why they got bought up, just to get them off the streets. It would make the use of Shinobi more important to a town.

As I understand it, you've described the origins of (some of) the yakuza. In Edo period, the samurai families of the Sengoku-jidai of course haven't stopped. And they haven't stopped having children either, of course! So between the peace and the natural growth of clans, there are a great number of samurai with really no purpose. Called kabuki-mono ("raving ones," some sources translate it as) or more properly hatamoto yakko ("servants of the hatamoto/shogun), some would dress wildly and use their position to justify extreme actions. Basically overpriviliged brats who never had to learn to control themselves. So, in some places, the local roughs and toughs (and plenty of drunks ;)) banded together calling themselves machi yakko ("servants of the town"), as a sort of vigilante/grassroots control on these nobles.

OK that much rememborizing hurt my brain. ;) Hope this helps give you a wider understanding of stuff. Oh, cool on Nakandakari about the potential bringing of a pottery style to Okinawa. As for stylistic changes to karate (ask about karate some other time), it's entirely believable. It has been said that if the master hasn't changed the martial art he practices, then he's not a master--just a talking book.

[Puzz3D]

You wonder about how common firearms were in Sengoku-jidai. They became a tool of growing importance throughout the era, although as I recall they were not the backbone of any Sengoku army.

I don't think they are dominate in Samurai Wars. The samurai archer unit is better than the Portuguese teppo unit and approximately equal to the Japanese teppo unit when those units exchange volleys. The teppo are also vulnerable to cavalry.

How did you realize all of the nuances of the source code? You must of spent a huge amount of time assimilating all of the calculations? Did you get the chance to discuss the strategy with the game designers or did you just figure it out when the code was released. Did the designers write their thoughts down somewhere?

Some things we figured out by running tests. I figured out how the Benny Hill effect worked by running tests on my LAN, and my results were later confirmed by the designer who then started posting to this forum. Using tests I designed to quantify the morale effects, I also determined that +12 morale had been accidentally added to all the units in the Mongol Invasion Expansion's multiplayer. I quantified many morale effects during this time, and the designer both confirmed those results and provided additional info on the combat system. Other players ran tests as well, and gradually over a two year period a good understanding of the battle engine was developed. Both the morale and combat systems were later documented by the designer in two chapters of the Official Medieval Total War Strategy Guide, and with some additional info provided by him in the forums during the MTW/VI period, a full understanding of the battle system was eventually achieved.

[Nakamura Lobato]

So when the Teppo or Archers run out of ammunition, do their combat stats change dramatically? I'm curious since once overrun, they were forced to hand to hand fighting. Of course the mounted archer units would be armed samurai, so they would be switching off to yari or katana.

What's the Benny Hill effect? I know the English comedian.

My library is in storage. I don't recall if Turnball explained if Teppo were available unless you had access to Portuguese traders. If the only way to get them was constructing Cathedrals, it seems like having the ability to create warrior monks and Portuguese teppo is unfair.

I'll bet that the rifling wasn't present inside off the barrels (the long spiral that guides the ball), but they still would have been somewhat accurate at close range. I doubt that the samurai would let just anyone get access to the matchlocks, particularly peasants. They were probably poor farmer-samurai ashigaru who got upgraded instead. It would have been dangerous to allow commoners weapons, hence the banning of weapons in Okinawa.

What program do you use to edit the source code? Are there programs so that you can change rules on the fly, or make additions?

Nakamura

[Puzz3D]

So when the Teppo or Archers run out of ammunition, do their combat stats change dramatically? I'm curious since once overrun, they were forced to hand to hand fighting. Of course the mounted archer units would be armed samurai, so they would be switching off to yari or katana.

Their stats don't change. They switch to their melee weapon when out of ammo or if overrun. You can also force this switch by pressing ALT when you order a ranged unit that still has ammo to attack.

The ranged weapon stat is separate from the melee weapon stat. The ranged weapon is a true vacuum physics model with range modified by height and accuracy modified by height, fatigue, weather and line of sight (LOS) of individual men while the melee is handled by a robust statistical model weighted by situational combat factors such as height, fatigue, striking at a man's flank, pushback, overcrowding, etc.

What's the Benny Hill effect? I know the English comedian.

That was what the designer called the effect where constant retreat would trigger a unit into an unrecoverable rout. In original STW, this would happen after about 5 consecutive moves away from enemy units within about 75 meters. The purpose of the feature was to prevent players from winning battles by constantly retreating from the enemy until the timer expired. Feint tactics with units such as cavalry archers were thus very limited. The Benny Hill effect was changed in STW/MI so that ranged units were not affected until they ran out of ammo. As I recall, the number of consecutive retreats needed to trigger the rout was also increased.

My library is in storage. I don't recall if Turnball explained if Teppo were available unless you had access to Portuguese traders. If the only way to get them was constructing Cathedrals, it seems like having the ability to create warrior monks and Portuguese teppo is unfair.

Original STW was set up like that. STWmod apparently can't duplicate that. I don't think it's unfair because the ability is available to all the clans.

I'll bet that the rifling wasn't present inside off the barrels (the long spiral that guides the ball), but they still would have been somewhat accurate at close range. I doubt that the samurai would let just anyone get access to the matchlocks, particularly peasants. They were probably poor farmer-samurai ashigaru who got upgraded instead. It would have been dangerous to allow commoners weapons, hence the banning of weapons in Okinawa.

There is no rifling and accuracy of teppo (0.12 and 0.16) is very low compared to the bow (0.6). The teppo are ashigaru units while the archers, both mounted and unmounted, are samurai and have better melee capability. Samurai do not suffer a morale penalty when they see ashigaru rout.

What program do you use to edit the source code? Are there programs so that you can change rules on the fly, or make additions?

We can't edit the source code. An editor called the Gnome Editor is useful for editing the unit stats. The projectile stats can be easiy edited with the notepad program. Samurai Wars was a group effort that took several months and many man hours to balance. The whole idea of the stat is that there isn't any one unit that dominates.

[Irinami]

... Benny Hill Effect for the FAIL. I wondered why my Taicho would flee if I used him to drag an enemy unit across the battlefield willy-nilly. Guess I just have to have him charge them a couple of times.

[Puzz3D]

... Benny Hill Effect for the FAIL. I wondered why my Taicho would flee if I used him to drag an enemy unit across the battlefield willy-nilly. Guess I just have to have him charge them a couple of times.

According to the designer, attacking an enemy unit resets the Benny Hill counter. I was never able to conclusively verify that in tests.

[Tomisama]

Some thoughts

Originally Posted by Nakamura Lobato
My library is in storage. I don't recall if Turnball explained if Teppo were available unless you had access to Portuguese traders. If the only way to get them was constructing Cathedrals, it seems like having the ability to create warrior monks and Portuguese teppo is unfair.

Guns were being manufactured by the Japanese themselves in the thousands, no traders required

Originally Posted by Nakamura Lobato
I'll bet that the rifling wasn't present inside off the barrels (the long spiral that guides the ball), but they still would have been somewhat accurate at close range. I doubt that the samurai would let just anyone get access to the matchlocks, particularly peasants. They were probably poor farmer-samurai ashigaru who got upgraded instead. It would have been dangerous to allow commoners weapons, hence the banning of weapons in Okinawa.

It is my impression that only Samurai class or above actually owned weapons of any kind. In fact I remember reading one account where there was a list of basic weapon requirements for a Samurai under a particular Lord. He had to have so many spears, so many guns, etc.. I am guessing that there are many variations on this, but essentially peasant soldiers (Ashigaru) were only allowed arms as needed. But in any case, I am certain that thousands of ordinary peasants were trained and given guns (just not to take home).



Edit: When Chinese matchlocks (mostly handguns) were all that were available, I am sure these rare weapons were highly prized by Samurai who owned them. And those guns never saw more than private use. But when the sword smith traded his daughter for the training on how to properly close the arquebus barrel end, the availability the gun, and history of Japan were forever changed