Thanks - praise and chat

[Tomisama]

I’m sorry if I appear confrontational, that was not my mission.

I only seek to spur controversy to provide a platform for the exchange of knowledge.

Ancient Japanese firearms has become of special study of mine, and I could not resist jumping in to the conversation, but never intended to kill it

[Nakamura Lobato]

I never that you were confrontational, Tomisama.

I started my last semester of basic sciences in med school. I'm studying for boards. Not enough time for sleep, much less Samurai Warlords.

No rest for the exhausted.

I guess the confusion comes in from James Clavel's Shogun. I thought that he based it on historical fact, and that Turnball confirmed the 1st use of firearms at The Battle of Sekigahara by the Tokugawa army? But that doesn't sound right at all. Didn't Nobunaga use them earlier?

Four hours of sleep in tow dasy maeks ti hadr to thnik.
Nakamura

[Irinami]

No worries mate. What you mentioned jives well with what I'd read. Have nothing more to add. :)

[Puzz3D]

I guess the confusion comes in from James Clavel's Shogun. I thought that he based it on historical fact, and that Turnball confirmed the 1st use of firearms at The Battle of Sekigahara by the Tokugawa army? But that doesn't sound right at all. Didn't Nobunaga use them earlier?

From Wikipedia: "The first arquebuses were introduced in Japan in 1543 by Portuguese traders (Fernão Mendes Pinto), who landed by accident on Tanegashima, an island south of Kyūshū in the region controlled by the Shimazu clan. By 1550, copies of the Portuguese arquebus were being produced in large quanties, and they were often seen on the battlefields all over Japan."


STW begins in 1530 and has the Portuguese arrival scripted to occur in 1543 if you have the required options in place. Somewhat later the Dutch arrive with the musket, but my understanding is that the musket wasn't used in Japan during the Sengoku Jidai. The Japanese manufactured copies of the Portuguese arquebusier (teppo). The Japanese teppo was of better workmanship and that is reflected in STWmod by giving them higher accuracy. Since we don't have seasonal turns in STWmod, the campaign starts earlier than 1530 and we don't have the availability of the teppo tied to the arrival of Portuguese traders. As a result, it may be possible to get teppo earlier than 1543. I think barocca had to choose a compromise solution because of the differences between STW and MTW.

[Tomisama]

Now this has no bearing on the game, but for those who love to peruse the unsolvable mazes of history, three things have be brought to my attention.

1. The Portuguese considered Pinto to be quite the story teller.

“They gave rise to the saying "Fernão, Mentes? Minto!", a Portuguese pun on his name meaning "Fernão, do you lie? Yes, I lie!"”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fern%C3%A3o_Mendes_Pinto

2. The Japanese themselves do not believe that there was a transfer of advanced Western technology to Japan. At least they have no evidence to support it in all of Japan.

http://www.rekihaku.ac.jp/e-rekihaku/114/index.html

3. The term used to describe these weapons by almost all Western “expert” documentation is “arquebus”. This is derived from the name harquebus, or German hackbüchse, which means latch gun. In Europe the latch gun referred to a weapon requiring a support rest or wall hook to support it’s “long” barrel. This is not a description of the Tanegashima gun, plain an simple.

Who knows ;)

[Irinami]

The use of the term "arquebus" in reference to the firearms in Japan has always been tenuous. I wouldn't go reading too much into the word. On the other hand, if there is a lack of evidence, then that's interesting. However, it's a sure thing that Dutch and Portuguese traders were active in sengoku-jidai; the Portuguese as Nanban (southern barbarians), bringing coveted Chinese goods in an end run around the Chinese ban on trade wth Japan, and the Dutch as the Kōmō (red hair), though they came in round 1600.

Quite interesting though, certainly something to read up on.

Edit: Which I was doing as I wrote this. I was going to jokingly say, "So maybe the Dutch were bringing Chinese arquebuses!" I was re-reading the Nanban article on Wiki, came across the following:

Strictly speaking, the Japanese were already familiar with gunpowder (invented by, and transmitted from China), and had been using basic Chinese guns and cannon tubes called Teppō (鉄砲 Lit.”Iron cannon”) for around 270 years before the arrival of the Portuguese. The Portuguese guns however were light, had a matchlock firing mechanism and were easy to aim with.

Sounds like the Chinese-tube "Teppo" were a bit more like arquebus, and the name probably stuck from use. I'd wager the Portuguese designs weren't co-opted in toto, but were used as inspiration to upgrade their own.

Also of note:

Within a year (ed: of Pinto's OR WHOEVER'S contact with the Japanese), Japanese swordsmiths and ironsmiths managed to reproduce the mechanism and mass-produce the guns. Barely fifty years later, "by the end of the 16th century, guns were almost certainly more common in Japan than in any other country in the world", its armies equipped with a number of guns dwarfing any contemporary army in Europe (Perrin).

Perrin's a pretty respected source, so I wouldn't doubt that. Guess I was wrong in saying they were never a backbone.

[Tomisama]

3. The term used to describe these weapons by almost all Western “expert” documentation is “arquebus”. This is derived from the name harquebus, or German hackbüchse, which means latch gun. In Europe the latch gun referred to a weapon requiring a support rest or wall hook to support it’s “long” barrel. This is not a description of the Tanegashima gun, plain an simple.

Well I was at least wrong about part, if not all of this. If the Japanese din't have any record, what about other people of the same period?

To try to make some comparisons I started looking for anything on 16th century weapons and their manufacture. In several places I did find reference to arquebus being carried on sailing expeditions (Sir Francis Drake, etc.), and looking at pictures must conclude that there is a marked resemblance between the Japanese and European versions, including size!

For example:

Ralegh's colonists probably had several kinds of foreign and domestic firearms. First among small arms of the period was the arquebus (harquebus, hackbut), a smooth-bore muzzle-loading weapon of fifteenth century origin, with a barrel about 3 feet long.

http://www.nps.gov/archive/fora/arms.htm

I will be continuing to research this subject, and collect data

[Nakamura Lobato]

http://www.goosejuice.com/albums/jap...tsu/index.html
give me a katana, yari, or any other weapon any day.

Nakamura

[Puzz3D]

give me a katana, yari, or any other weapon any day.

The teppo isn't being used as an individual weapon. It's used to volley which multiplies the effectiveness. In the game, a single man with a teppo is useless.

[TosaInu]

Well I was at least wrong about part, if not all of this. If the Japanese din't have any record, what about other people of the same period?

To try to make some comparisons I started looking for anything on 16th century weapons and their manufacture. In several places I did find reference to arquebus being carried on sailing expeditions (Sir Francis Drake, etc.), and looking at pictures must conclude that there is a marked resemblance between the Japanese and European versions, including size!

For example:

http://www.nps.gov/archive/fora/arms.htm

I will be continuing to research this subject, and collect data

Japanese guns can not be compared to the European ones. The first gun hitting shore in Japan was from Chinese origin. It wasn't all that great. Next were Portugese rifles, those were better. But the Japanese started to copy and improve it. Apart from making a very good quality arquebus, it could shoot in rain (impregnated fuse), standard boresizes were used, and they had cartridges. Standard boresizes made it much easier to supply, but it also speeds up reload (Western gunners had a tool to 'cut' the bullet to their bore). Cartridges also speed up reloading.