It's... it's... beautiful :O

[Bijo]

Have finally tried out Shogun, as I've received the Gold Edition today. Being used to RTW and M2TW, this game is kind of overwhelming due to its difference here and there. But it sure is a good game. The atmosphere totally sucks me in.

What I don't like, though, is that when you invade an enemy region you're always the attacker. Actually I thought I could just stand around with my army to cause devastation to the land to damage their income, and to defend if the enemy decides to engage me. (I respond better to the enemy when defending.)

But in general I like the strategy map: it's so simple, yet so effective.


First I started with Hojo on Normal, but the campaign part was just too confusing, so I restarted with Shimazu on Easy in the west to get a good feeling about it, to understand its beautiful effective simplicity.

Battles are pretty nice and what's even more to it, is that it all runs perfectly smooth with the extremely low requirements.


Off-topic:
I'm really thinking a Shogun 2 would be the bomb. It'd be perfect if they somehow made the campaign map a mix of RTW/M2TW and Shogun's.
And the battle controls should be of course like M2TW's/RTW's (example: one button for close/loose formation).

[Gregoshi]

I'm glad to hear you are immersed in the game as us old timers were Bijo. One thing to keep in mind at the campaign level is that there aren't nearly as many options as there are with RTW & M2TW. With STW it was more about fighting the battles. The wealth of strategic options we have with RTW and M2TW are a result of the STW (and later MTW) fans clamoring for more to do strategically.

Anyway, have you fought a battle in fog or heavy snow yet? How about during a thunder storm? (turn up the volume for the thunder claps!) There is nothing quite like groping around blindly for the enemy and just hoping your army is formed up properly to engage them. Hehehe, I love it. BTW, Sun Tzu's The Art of War figured importantly in STW. My favourite is if you see birds flying over a wooded area, that usually means ambushers are hiding within.

Enjoy! Enjoy! Enjoy!

[Orda Khan]

Stop it Gregoshi, stop it please. I just had a flash back to a 4v4 where I was left flank and I could hear the rumble of musket fire waaaaay off to the right.
Too many good memories

......Orda

[KukriKhan]

Ha! Looks like we got another one hooked on "ambience"; that elusive, addictive, game-loving trait that's kept so many old-timers coming back to totalwar, hoping, praying against all odds, to recapture the rapture we felt then.

We can (and do) argue game mechanics, tech traits, and coding snafu's. But in the end, it really is about how it felt to play. Did I laugh, did I cry, did I live, did I die.

The successful Hollywood & Bollywood guys have caught on to this, and give us product that satisfies, mostly. Gaming industry is still working on it, currently entranced by the (false IMO) siren song of graphics enhancement.

Gamers, like movie-viewers, are willing (and eager) to immerse themselves, suspend their disbelief, for about 20 minutes. That's about how long the product has to hook the player/viewer, that is: seduce that guy into wanting more, and encouraging him/her to suspend disbelief & play longer. THAT is what makes a good game, movie or book. When you can't wait to turn the page and see what happens next.

Uh-oh, I might have started to rant there. Sorry.

Glad you like the game Bijo. Your wish for a Shogun2 is shared by many.

[Derfasciti]

STW is really fun, I agree. STW2 would be incredible and even though I have no sources whatsoever, I have a gut feeling that's whats going to be the next CA project.

[Motep]

Do you have to revert your graphics cerd to play it though? (I have been planning on buying it myself)

[Tony Furze]

Nice one, KukriKhan. I ll be copying that post with your permission.

Its what Im trying to aim at with my MTW article (see MTW thread) and I hope to get to Shogun which is an entirely different game all round. Something happened even between Shogun and MTW-a change in emphasis that really lifted Shogun to the status of a Classic.

For anyone who remembers:did you feel tha way some feel about M2TW now, when MTW came out after Shogun?

[Bijo]

Gregoshi, yeah I've fought a battle in fog. MAN, it's exciting. There's even been a battle where I was surprised by the AI during fine weather: my army marched through a passage through hill-like terrain. Their archers moved quickly to the right hill, I sent my cavalry at them, and whaddaya know, from the trees behind my cavalry they charge their spearmen at me. It's like they lure you out to trap you. Personally I never saw anything like it in RTW or M2TW.



Ooooh, I hope this wish of people wanting a Shogun 2 will come true.

Ha! Looks like we got another one hooked on "ambience"; that elusive, addictive, game-loving trait....

Oh yeah!

[marcusbrutus]

Well from reading this I might get a copy of STW. I Have MTW and RTW but don't have a good enough PC for M2TW I'd like to know if people have problems playing STW on newer machines though?

[Gregoshi]

marcus, my PC is a three (four?) year old P4 2.53gHz Dell - hardly state of the art anymore, but much more of a PC than existed at the time of STW. The only problem I ever ran into with play STW on it was when exiting the game...the absolute best time to have a error if you're going to have one. However, I do know that others have had issues. Try starting here: Need help installing... which is pinned at the top of this forum. You can also try looking back in this forum a page or three or look in the Apothecary forum for the kinds of issues folks have been having with STW on newer machines.

STW is cheap these days and is worth a look. As is mentioned above, the strategic part of the game leaves something to be desired, but, oh, the battles!

[marcusbrutus]

Thanks Gregoshi. Looks like I'll be able to get it for less than 5 GBP. Bargain.

[caravel]

Ha! Looks like we got another one hooked on "ambience"; that elusive, addictive, game-loving trait that's kept so many old-timers coming back to totalwar, hoping, praying against all odds, to recapture the rapture we felt then.

We can (and do) argue game mechanics, tech traits, and coding snafu's. But in the end, it really is about how it felt to play. Did I laugh, did I cry, did I live, did I die.

An ambience that has never been recaptured since. I remember firing up MTW for the first time, and thinking "oh dear...". I was decidedly underwhelmed. A few of the things I hated most were:
1) Siege equipment and sieges
2) Poor unit balance
3) The campaign map design

Also the concepts of loyalty and the different stats for generals as well as V&Vs annoyed be, but I got used to those. The biggest problem though: What happened to the ambience, where are the storms and fog?

I think the problem was that MTW was essentially a Shogun mod with a Medieval setting. It lacked the polished feel of it's predecessor and felt half done in some ways. It was as if the beast that was Shogun had been twisted and deformed into being Medieval.

The successful Hollywood & Bollywood guys have caught on to this, and give us product that satisfies, mostly. Gaming industry is still working on it, currently entranced by the (false IMO) siren song of graphics enhancement.

A truer word was never spoken. When will the eye candy lovers understand that it's not how realistic an object looks, but the overall feel that it gives to the game. The low poly birds in STW for example would be looked on with scorn by many. To me they were almost origami like in their elegance. Something about them was quite sad and haunting and added to the ambience of the game. Realistic high poly birds that sang and moved realistically wouldn't have had the same effect.

Gamers, like movie-viewers, are willing (and eager) to immerse themselves, suspend their disbelief, for about 20 minutes. That's about how long the product has to hook the player/viewer, that is: seduce that guy into wanting more, and encouraging him/her to suspend disbelief & play longer. THAT is what makes a good game, movie or book. When you can't wait to turn the page and see what happens next.

A book doesn't have visuals, unless it may have a few pictures, and who judges a book on the quality of the illustrations. I've seen games that are graphically superb yet ugly. Look at the old Quake series for example. The first game had some atmosphere but not the greatest graphics, the rest were tacky and nasty looking. It seems that games developers think that Image Quality is everything these days.

Your wish for a Shogun2 is shared by many.

I'd love to see a Shogun2, though with the current RTW/M2TW RTS style campaign map it just wouldn't be the same, even if the did manage to recapture the ambiance of STW.

[marcusbrutus]

A book doesn't have visuals, unless it may have a few pictures, and who judges a book on the quality of the illustrations. I've seen games that are graphically superb yet ugly. Look at the old Quake series for example. The first game had some atmosphere but not the greatest graphics, the rest were tacky and nasty looking. It seems that games developers think that Image Quality is everything these days.

Game graphics are like bikinis - it's not about what you show, it's about what you leave to the imagination.

At the point games are now the developers had better draw everything as I want it otherwise it spoils the realism. I don't want 100 identical, clean shaven peasants in amazing detail I want every peasant individually dressed and equiped quite uniquely. I demand different facial hair, eye colour, height and build. If you can't do that then leave it to my imagination and the game will be much more realistic.

Edit: I'm having this in my sig

[Martok]

The low poly birds in STW for example would be looked on with scorn by many. To me they were almost origami like in their elegance. Something about them was quite sad and haunting and added to the ambience of the game. Realistic high poly birds that sang and moved realistically wouldn't have had the same effect.

That was well-said, Caravel; I especially agree with the birds possessing an origami-like quality. (I wonder if that was deliberate on CA's part, or if it just happened to work out that way?) It's the little details like that that really help bring a game to life.

I personally feel MTW still has a lot of atmosphere (particularly in the battles), but you're right in that Shogun is definitely superior in this area. In fact, I would go so far as to say that--at least for me--no other game has as much atmosphere & ambience as STW. I experience an immersion like no other title I've ever played.

[caravel]

Game graphics are like bikinis - it's not about what you show, it's about what you leave to the imagination.

At the point games are now the developers had better draw everything as I want it otherwise it spoils the realism. I don't want 100 identical, clean shaven peasants in amazing detail I want every peasant individually dressed and equiped quite uniquely. I demand different facial hair, eye colour, height and build. If you can't do that then leave it to my imagination and the game will be much more realistic.

Well exactly, you've pretty much summed it up. When I'm playing MTW or STW my imagination kind of fills in the blanks. I don't need to see startling realism. I'm not about to go and complain at the .com because the grass was blowing in the wrong direction or the 3D sweat beads were the wrong colour, or the horses mess didn't have realistic enough steam evapourating from it properly befitting a battle fought in Denmark on a thursday afternoon after tea. Also I don't get "hung up" about the minor historical details such as lances being held 2 degress too high, or the wrong breed of horse being used etc etc etc ad nauseum. If there's fairly realistic representation then it's ok with me.

That was well-said, Caravel; I especially agree with the birds possessing an origami-like quality. (I wonder if that was deliberate on CA's part, or if it just happened to work out that way?) It's the little details like that that really help bring a game to life.

It may not have been intentional but it is a piece of brilliance. I can start a battle in STW look at the grey sky and weathered landscape and see those birds fluttering around and here the crash of a storm and it seems ominous, a voice in my head says "this is it". It feels like a battle is about to occur and that it's going to be life and death. If I just leave it there paused the soothing and peaceful music then sends my wife off to sleep! What more do people want?? This is a computer game we're talking about here, yet it has qualities that one would find in an artform.

I personally feel MTW still has a lot of atmosphere (particularly in the battles), but you're right in that Shogun is definitely superior in this area. In fact, I would go so far as to say that--at least for me--no other game has as much atmosphere & ambience as STW. I experience an immersion like no other title I've ever played.

In MTW only the desert battles have atmosphere for me.

[Noir]

The basic point of marcus that imagiation fills the ranks is something i've been long saying but it seems that nobody has ears for such things these days...

Caravel is also essentially stating that STW was possibly the only TW title that had a conceptual cohesion (as all others were put together in response of some need ie to expand the fanbase and to make the game more accessible) and was executed accordingly.

Although the game drew heavily upon such classics as "Nobunaga's Ambition" it was exemplary in its detail in the campaign map (the videos! the throne room! the distinctly japanese design! and of course the music...) - and as for in the battlefield i think everyone who played and loved the game cannot forget that for example the light of day filtered through the weather was simply excellent - you could really feel the damp heavy rain of Owari or the pure deep snow of Yamashiro in the way the battlemap was lit.

As for units coming out of the trees... well, there's a moral penalty to units attacked by previously hiding units and the AI was exploiting that. Those were the days that setting ambushes was possible and meaningful...

[caravel]

As for units coming out of the trees... well, there's a moral penalty to units attacked by previously hiding units and the AI was exploiting that. Those were the days that setting ambushes was possible and meaningful...

This is sadly lacking in MTW. In terms of deployment according to terrain STW is often better than MTW, though not always. MTW AI hardly every deploys it's units into the trees however, and if it does it redeploys them much too soon, giving away it's position. The morale penalty is effected by attacking directly from the trees and not interrupting the attack. The unit has to attack out of the trees and run to the enemy and attack them. Clicking anywhere else in between or clicking on attack twice, seems to nullify it. This seems to apply to MTW also.

[naut]

So much brilliance said in this thread I can not quote it all.

Hmm.. must reinstall STW.

[Gregoshi]

Hmm.. must reinstall STW.

Yeah. I can't believe I actually uninstalled STW to free up some disk space. I see a reinstallation in my future too.

[caravel]

An inevitable reinstallation is written in the stars for me.

[Noir]

Off topic,
Caravellini... is that you?

[caravel]

It is! Welcome excetchzebe1, to the .org. I believe you're from .com? Sorry if I've forgotten, as it's been a long time.

[Noir]

Nice to see you again, and thanks for the welcome.

I had my suspicions regarding your username but your posts on the ".com down?" thread showed a... profound knowledge of the issue... and so there was no doubt. Also nice to see you trying modding - i'll try your pocket mod at the earliest oppurtunity.

I saw you logged in some times in the .com but never seen you posting again after early summer 2006 i believe.

I still write occasionaly in the shogun and medieval forums in the .com (which as you know are decent for discussing the game) and evenmore occasionaly in the Medieval II forum but only posts-debates as to why the new direction of the TW games is no good although i become (like others) more and more convinced that i am wasting my time.

I've tried M2 at a friends and despite the fact that the campaign can be "fixed" to my taste, the battles cannot (the engine does not allow). Sure the graphics re good - but it is nowhere near a wargame anymore, it became indeed more cinematic ie the player is much more of a viewer than a player.

So i very quickly aborted from buying (without any regrets) as i know now from RTW that i would have to go through an enormous amount of frustration and combination of trying mods which i would have to home mod as well to get the game to resemble something playable in the campaign while the battles wouldn't be "fixed" to my STW/MTW standard in any case.

Another thing that bothered me very much was the aesthetics... they have turned completely wooden, the portraits are awful and resemble sci-fi characters and the intro movies (and the speeches there) are plain opinionated horror. Just read the Byzantine faction descriptions in MTW and M2; the difference is striking. The voices are childish, as much childish as they were in Rome (i disagree with others that find them ok now). "Attack, Attack!", "These people will call you now king sire" ...

I know some people that seem to be geniunely enjoying M2 as a game, but they play the battles pausing at will (which is something that... completely ruins the game for me) or they care for other aspects more (such as roleplaying); there aren't incredibly many though and even for them the game requires extensive modification (if not conversion).

I think that most fans that get the game have no clue that it could be different - have no clue about how the engine works and generally they just take what they are given for granted and it is to them that the game is aiming mainly. Of course there are always those that demand graphics, but i guess they are satisfied with M2, for now...

They all complain about bugs and things, but that's normal - the problem is one of direction for me; bugs are inevitable for any release and sooner or later they'll be fixed.

[caravel]

Nice to see you again, and thanks for the welcome.

I had my suspicions regarding your username but your posts on the ".com down?" thread showed a... profound knowledge of the issue... and so there was no doubt.

I probably display the typical attitude of an "ex .commie". I know what the place is about, so now I don't bother. I've taken my patronage to this fine establishment instead. If this adopted the same policies tomorrow I'd probably be making use of my free time doing something else.

Also nice to see you trying modding - i'll try your pocket mod at the earliest oppurtunity.

Totally... at your own risk. A few have tried it, none have returned.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hey I'm not joking!

I saw you logged in some times in the .com but never seen you posting again after early summer 2006 i believe.

I think I had one or two PM's, I did post about twice in the MTW forum IIRC, possibly while drunk.

I still write occasionaly in the shogun and medieval forums in the .com (which as you know are decent for discussing the game) and evenmore occasionaly in the Medieval II forum but only posts-debates as to why the new direction of the TW games is no good although i become (like others) more and more convinced that i am wasting my time.

I have my own reasons for avoiding it which I'd prefer not to air here, as that would be self indulgent and pointless, "pasado, pasado". I doubt I'll post again, unless some big changes are made over there, if that never happens, which I doubt very much, then I'll never post there again and It's no loss to me, as I've no reason to do so. As to their M2TW forum, it is quite chaotic to say the least.

I haven't tried M2TW, as to all intents and purposes it is to RTW what MTW was to STW = more of the same. Eye candy doesn't really float my boat. I got over all that. When the first 3D games appeared I was stunned. When I got myself my first Voodoo card and saw 3D accelerated games for the first time I was astounded. Nowadays, where it's the norm for both movies and games, I'm decidedly unimpressed by it. I also dislike some of the childish, cartoonish aspects of RTW but I can live with them, more so than I can live with the battles and the entire "movement points" tiled, RTS style make up of the campaign game itself, that combined with it's total lack of ambience makes it dull and almost unplayable. As far as M2TW's concerned I'm not ready to spend £30 on something else to sit on a shelf for nearly a year then sell on ebay for £15.

-Edit: I did snap up RTW and BI together though for a bargain price, and gave it another go. The later patches make a lot of difference, and RTR looks great but I didn't have time to get into it. I can't reinstall it now as I need to get a new graphics card first, as my old one is playing up, so I'm using an even older one.

[naut]

Totally... at your own risk. A few have tried it, none have returned

Neither did my machine, (actually that might have been thieves ).

As to their M2TW forum, it is quite chaotic to say the least.

As can be expected. But for the .Org I must say the Junior Member system does pay dividends in regard to this.

All I can say to M2TW is that it does not impress me, but I hope that I can get it the same way I got RTW+BI+ALEX, a mate got sick of them and so gave them to me for nothing.

[Noir]

More than the 30£, its the amount of time spent on modding/try mods/wait for mods, outside of the main attraction that is to actually play the game that in the end makes little difference on the battlefield.

i wanted to like RTW, i wanted to reach a stage through modding where i would say "that's it! that's how it should be! now lets go down to business". It never happened though; while it has happened while playing various MTW mods to which i come back again and again.

RTR and EB are great, but despite their efforts, admitedly they don't reach the MTW/STW standard of battles and that is due to the engine. Campaigns play interestingly, especially in EB, although they are indeed very long.

Ultimately, unless the engine shows signs of becoming a true tactical wargame, like it once was, new TW releases aren't for me.

[Lucjan]

KurkiKhan I think you said it best..

I still remember playing Shogun for the first time and how stupid I felt when I mismanaged my souther provinces and by turn 10 I was stranded to 4 holdings in the north.

How I relied so heavily on my Takeda cavalry to carry the day, every charge hopeful, every outnumbered battle an exercise in anxiety, every victory one worthy of mass celebration.

Now I'm completely immersed in M2, for me it brings back a lot of that initial immersion that was somehow lost in Rome. But I would like to see either another Shogun or a Three Kingdoms tw...

Preferably three kingdoms...

*Back to the ambiance of m2.*

[caravel]

Neither did my machine, (actually that might have been thieves ).

Good lord, what happened there, did I miss something??

As can be expected. But for the .Org I must say the Junior Member system does pay dividends in regard to this.

It's a good filter against those that come here with the intention of causing trouble, but it can deter some of the decent people as well. The current system of allowing them access to some of the other forums as well as the EH is a lot better IMHO.

All I can say to M2TW is that it does not impress me, but I hope that I can get it the same way I got RTW+BI+ALEX, a mate got sick of them and so gave them to me for nothing.

Well I will wait until the expansion is out and patched before I bother with it, if at all.

More than the 30£, its the amount of time spent on modding/try mods/wait for mods, outside of the main attraction that is to actually play the game that in the end makes little difference on the battlefield.

I didn't spend any time modding and only installed one mod. The only changes I made were configuration changes to disable the green markers and others. The unit highlights are horrible though. The bouncing flags of STW/MTW are much more subtle. I've seen some people complaining about those, they don't bother me at all. Another thing I disliked was the left click/right click controls on the battlefield. I really preferred the old way. They had their faults, but those faults could have been fixed without changing the button config completely. The annoying hammer on anvil or steel against steel sound and animated cursor every time you order an attack is annoying also.

i wanted to like RTW, i wanted to reach a stage through modding where i would say "that's it! that's how it should be! now lets go down to business". It never happened though; while it has happened while playing various MTW mods to which i come back again and again.

No matter how modded it is, it won't change the AI, poor diplomacy and other hardcoded issues.

RTR and EB are great, but despite their efforts, admitedly they don't reach the MTW/STW standard of battles and that is due to the engine. Campaigns play interestingly, especially in EB, although they are indeed very long.

I can't speak for EB, but RTR is a seriously good piece of modding. They have corrected a lot of the historical innacuracy (I'm not that pedantic about historical accuracy, but Ptolemaic Egypt and the Egypt of the Pharoahs are two different things. Also druids, that look like they've walked through a portal from a Warcraft game, and german screeching women, which had me staring in shocked disbelief, combined with Roman units that were so out of period, fictional, wrong, inbalanced, overpowered, cavalry that wheel and turn like a flock of birds... the list is endless. RTR fixed alot of that and did it well. They also removed the senate which though partially historically accurate doesn't really work in the game, at least for me it doesn't. I like flexibility, not being told what to conquer and when. This is probably why I never play GA in MTW, and why the pope telling you what to do was one of the most offputting aspects of the game after coming from STW.

Ultimately, unless the engine shows signs of becoming a true tactical wargame, like it once was, new TW releases aren't for me.

Same here. This is not about snobbery, or harking back to the good old days. I'm not so stupid as to believe that me not buying (or buying for that matter) M2TW is going to make a difference. I, being over 18 am probably not the target audience for the computer games market. STW and MTW did attract the more mature player, that trend has changed since the release of RTW. CA have gone where easy the money is, I suppose you can't blame them but personally I would have gone for the more "legendary" approach. CA, in their infinite wisdom, have moved with the competition. The days of the origami birds fluttering through the dark forests are long behind us.

[macsen rufus]

Well, quite unplanned I interrupted an MTW campaign to fire up STW for a while (I say unplanned - I intend to lend STW to a work colleague to get him into TW games, and thought I'd have a quick campaign as a refresher before he starts asking "How do I ....?" questions )

But everything above about ambience is really spot on. I love those birds too. First thing I do in a battle is scan the skyline to see where they're wheeling about, trying to read the landscape for possible ambushes. The pure simplicity of all factions having the same units, though spiced up with faction and province bonuses gives is something even MTW lacks. And the weather, that is a great boost to the ambience. The rain really feels wet and miserable in Shogun... and the fog never quite works to your advantage, no matter how carefully you manoeuvre. And those other Daimyos are a right bunch of untrustworthy backstabbers....

It runs okay on my GeForce 5200, though I have the oldest drivers I can get. The only problem is exiting - once I hit quit it freezes the machine with 100% CPU usage. The only way out is to alt-tab, alt-ctrl-del and close it from there. When I forget I have to hibernate the machine for a while to get back into Windows. Still, it's worth that minor hassle!

[Noir]

Well Caravel,
in that case i propose that you try EB 0.8 next time you feel like giving RTW another chance. Its worth it, in that at least you'll learn a lot.

As for GA and the Pope, i sincerely on the other hand liked those aspects, i just wish they were more varied. For example the Italians (or Venetians in XL) could make GA points for every say 4000 florins they could "cash in" the GA counter (allowing them to concentrate on building and defending a trade empire), the Byzantines could have more religious goals (as well as the Patriarch as equivalent to the Pope - i would love a utual excom screen or trying to mend the schism for political gains) and -4 loaylty for their provincial and political titles (to reflect the common rebellions & usurpations).

The thing i disliked about vanilla was the fact that excoms didn't last enough and Crusades were like bread and butter. These though were fixed in various mods.

All in all GA was a great opportunity, as they could give several viable long term strategies in every faction to win the game, without having to conquer too much instead of giving GA points/no of provinces conquered.

Another feature i always advocated was the homeland recruitment that the MedMod and your mod use, as well as a "cultural similarity" meter that would determine loyalty under conquerors - say the spanish would find it hard to keep the sweeds loyal under their rule.

Anyway, this is a thread about how much beautiful Shogun is and how much great atmosphere it has: