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Thread: Ever got a vassal?

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    Member Member Ripipip's Avatar
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    Default Ever got a vassal?

    I was playing denmark and had already destroyed England when i faced Scottland. They were my allies and patheticly weak when they turned against me . Anyway, i killed all their units with one army and took all their settlements except for Dublin where the faction leader was. Scottlands only unit. I gathered a huge army outside and then i took my diplomat and asked them if they wanted to be my vassals. They refused. Then i offered them every region in the brittish islands and a few in france but they still refused to be my vassals for all those 15 provinces or so.. . I mean, why have the vassal function if it is impossible to get one!? Big surprise for their lonely king when i killed him a few seconds after and scottland was destroyed. Idiot. So honestly, any1 EVER managed to get a vassal?

  2. #2
    Cynic Senior Member sapi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    I have, but only when things didn't degenarate to the 'fight to the death mentality', and i had to pay a hell of a lot for it.

    iirc it was after smashing their only field army and paying them about 150k (as england to the hre)
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    Just an Oldfart Member Basileus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    Ive always found this option flawed so i never use it my self, you dont get any good benefits from it either as far as i gather so pointless.

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    Master Procrastinator Member TevashSzat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    I got one really easily. I was Denmark and number 1 overall and I attacked Poland with a full stack besieging Thorn. They were like 14th or 15th overall so they didn't attack me at all even though they had a city near it and asked for a ceasefire. I asked them to become my vassal and to my surprise it was a balanced offer and they accepted.
    "I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me." - Issac Newton

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    Member Member Nutranurse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    Were you using any AI mods?
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    Prussian Musketeer Member Faenaris's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    I had 1 vasal pre-patch and 2 vassals after patch. I now use Shawa Wangy's diplomacy mod and it improves diplomacy on the whole. Vassals are a bit easier to get: In my Portugal Campaign, I managed to smash the Spaniards out the Iberian Peninsula and they were down to 1 castle in Bourdeaux. I smashed their last field army, parked my army next to the city (but not besieged it) and then asked for vasalisation. I gave them 25.000 florins to sweeten the deal, but they accepted. They broke away after 15 turns when I tried to buy their last city.
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  7. #7
    Master Procrastinator Member TevashSzat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    i wasn't using any mods and only had the patch installed.
    "I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me." - Issac Newton

  8. #8
    Member Member Musashi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    If the enemy sends an emissary to YOU to ask for a ceasefire, you can almost always negotiate for them to become a vassal.

    If you send the emissary to them, be prepared to pay through the nose.

    Also you have to have a good global reputation (Reliable at least, but much better if you have Trustworthy or Very Trustworthy) or it won't happen. If you don't have a good global reputation the AI won't send you emissaries because it doesn't believe you will keep a ceasefire agreement.
    Last edited by Musashi; 12-26-2006 at 23:52.
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    I could never figure out what vassalage does. what, exactly, does it do?
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    Vassalage does only one thing for you, it adds to your Territory count. All the Territroys controlled by a Vassal count toward the # of Regions you need to win the game. I won my HRE game by taking Iberia, then a Diplomat from the moors came to me offering a ceasefire. On a whim, I renegotiated for them to be my vassals. They agreed and Next thing I know I won. Note: this was on H/H difficulty.

    Of course, technically you also get the benefit of a military alliance/trade/and movement access. Not much, but unlike other alliances, vassalage is one the AI never breaks on their own.


    Also, when playing Hungary, Byzantine constantly asks me to become their vassal after attacking me. I swallowed my pride and accepted, and to my suprise, nothing happened. THey never bothered me again, it was the most convenient thing that ever happened. I took over the rest of the balakans, and then Italy. I completely outgrew Byzantium; one day my great armies show up on the doorstep of every one of their cities. Next Turn: No more Byzantium.

  11. #11
    Cynic Senior Member sapi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    Yep - vassalage doesn't work as it should.

    It's supposed to be that:
    - you can't break the vassalage
    - you can't declare war/make peace with anyone
    - you have to pay the other faction when you get too rich

    ...but it doesn't work :(
    From wise men, O Lord, protect us -anon
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    Member Member Musashi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    I get tons of money when I have a big vassal state, so it seems it IS working.
    Fear nothing except in the certainty that you are your enemy's begetter and its only hope of healing. For everything that does evil is in pain.
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    the G-Diffuser Senior Member pevergreen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    I became a vassal for fun, used to add_money 40000 cheat, next turn, no money.
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  14. #14
    Cynic Senior Member sapi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    The money's the only part that works ;)
    From wise men, O Lord, protect us -anon
    The death of one man is a tragedy; the death of millions, a statistic -Stalin
    We can categorically state that we have not released man-eating badgers into the area -UK military spokesman Major Mike Shearer

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    Master Procrastinator Member TevashSzat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    The unable to break of your alliance if you are the vassal definately doesn't work. In my campaign once i got the Polish as my vassals, I attacked HRE. The polish were allied with the HRE so they break off their vassalage....just two turns after they became vassals.
    "I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me." - Issac Newton

  16. #16
    Member Member Musashi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    Why shouldn't they be able to break their vassalage? That would be unrealistic.
    Fear nothing except in the certainty that you are your enemy's begetter and its only hope of healing. For everything that does evil is in pain.
    -The Maestro Sartori, Imajica by Clive Barker

  17. #17
    Confiscator of Swords Member dopp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    Conditions for vassalage, based on the vanilla diplomacy settings:

    1. Be at war with them.

    2. Border all their lands. If they happen to have a crusader region tucked away somewhere, then too bad; they feel safe enough to defy you. Wipe them out for their foolishness.

    3. Have 3 times their frontline military strength.

    4. Have 4 times their free military strength.

    5. Have a higher production rating than them. If you're the type that maintains small, elite armies and builds units infrequently, then they may think you are weak. Build stuff the turn before you ask them to raise the rating and impress them with your awesome industrial might.

    6. NOT be their "shadow faction". Short campaigns usually require your faction to eliminate one or two others to win. Those factions will never accept ceasefire or vassalage and will fight to the death.

    Vassalage is actually a little fragile because the vassal maintains its old alliances. The relationship will often break when you go to war with one of its allies as it (rather obviously) chooses to support the other side.

  18. #18
    Original Viking Member hundurinn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    I was able to get the French to accept vassalage but they immediately broke it the same turn. I guess it will never work.

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    Cynic Senior Member sapi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi
    Why shouldn't they be able to break their vassalage? That would be unrealistic.
    Vassalage = full occupation. There's no way you'd let them make their own decisions.
    From wise men, O Lord, protect us -anon
    The death of one man is a tragedy; the death of millions, a statistic -Stalin
    We can categorically state that we have not released man-eating badgers into the area -UK military spokesman Major Mike Shearer

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    Knight of Santiago Member baron_Leo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    Quote Originally Posted by sapi
    Vassalage = full occupation. There's no way you'd let them make their own decisions.

    Yeah but, vassals should be able for example to revolt against their heirs...as it did happen often in history
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  21. #21
    Friend of Lady Luck Member Mooks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    So sad, I had high hopes CA would improve on this

    On the plus side though, if you are in a war with a faction that is very far away, or has a huge cultural diffrence, making them your vassal will make it so you dont have to garrison their cities - or finish them off. The term "Buffer states" comes to mind.
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    Funny I thought that getting vassal state were to easy. A couple of Florins here and there a couple of threats and almost total occupation, and they accept. It is fun for a while but all they do is stand around, thinking that i should protect them. It is just like a protectorate in RTW, but easier to get in M2. It is no different than an ally.
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    Cynic Senior Member sapi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    Quote Originally Posted by baron_Leo
    Yeah but, vassals should be able for example to revolt against their heirs...as it did happen often in history
    My point is that if you're a vassal, any revolt you tried would end in the destruction of your entire faction (through use of the occupation troops)
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    The death of one man is a tragedy; the death of millions, a statistic -Stalin
    We can categorically state that we have not released man-eating badgers into the area -UK military spokesman Major Mike Shearer

  24. #24
    Member Member Musashi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    That's not true... Vassals were rarely heavily occupied. Part of the point of a vassalage is that the vassal is required to maintain an army for your use... And part of the reason people agree to them is that they are allowed to remain largely autonomous.

    What you're talking about is more on the order of the destruction of the faction, something only an idiot would agree to.
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  25. #25
    Cynic Senior Member sapi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    I'm talking 'vassalage' in the terms of what happened to japan and germany after ww2 (and to some extent germany after ww1 with the rhineland) - the country is allowed to exist but must relinquish all control over its destiny and submit to a military occupation.

    Basically, an admission of defeat without being totally destroyed.
    From wise men, O Lord, protect us -anon
    The death of one man is a tragedy; the death of millions, a statistic -Stalin
    We can categorically state that we have not released man-eating badgers into the area -UK military spokesman Major Mike Shearer

  26. #26

    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    Yes.

    As the English I had long since driven the Russians out of their traditional territory, and though I was still at war with them, there had been about 50 years of stalemate with them in Yerevan, Trebizond and Edessa.

    The only other surviving faction was the Egyptians. Long previously, I had paid them a large sum of money over 3 turns in order that they might make peace - not because I was losing but because I felt like a break from war. The turn after my money finished and Egyptian fleets began blockading my ports, so I vowed to wipe them off the map. At the same time, they were allied to the Russians.

    I had captured all of Egypt except Antioch and Jerusalem, and I spotted a Russian princess. I married her and there was an Anglo-Russian alliance -unfortunately this meant a ceasefire with the Egyptians. I quickly continued with my oath to destroy them and Russia broke off the alliance. After a few more turns giving them money (I wanted to be friends with someone having been at war with various factions non stop for 300 years) they asked for all their traditional land back or they would attack. I moved in and besieged all their cities. Another princess pops up and I married her. By this time the Egyptians were destroyed, and the Russians had moved into Mosul and Baghdad. Again, they threatened to attack if I didn't give Russia back to them. The next war lost them Yerevan, Trebizond, Edessa and Mosul, before I spotted another princess and married her. A turn later they agreed to become my vassal.

    As my vassal I saw no benefit to England - the Russians were still lippy, and it was as if they had become my ally - no different. After a few turns, I got bored and conquered Baghdad, wiping them off the map too.

    All in all, them being my vassals was a waste of time.

  27. #27
    Member Member Musashi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    Quote Originally Posted by sapi
    I'm talking 'vassalage' in the terms of what happened to japan and germany after ww2 (and to some extent germany after ww1 with the rhineland) - the country is allowed to exist but must relinquish all control over its destiny and submit to a military occupation.

    Basically, an admission of defeat without being totally destroyed.
    Yeah, that's not how vassalage worked in the medieval period, not usually anyway.

    Generally one king or lord would agree to be the vassal of the other. He retains his title and authority, but he takes on the responsibilities of a vassal... Just like any of the other king's dukes, this king is expected to provide armies for the sovereign state in time of war, and pay taxes to the sovereign state.

    The point for the winner is that they don't have to go to the expense of finishing the conquest, or garrisoning the conquered province... And the vassal state doesn't have to suffer being fully annexed and occupied.
    Fear nothing except in the certainty that you are your enemy's begetter and its only hope of healing. For everything that does evil is in pain.
    -The Maestro Sartori, Imajica by Clive Barker

  28. #28
    Master Procrastinator Member TevashSzat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    The vassal however agreed to the terms of the vassalage and if they break it even if you attacked one of their allies, they should at least lose reputation.
    "I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me." - Issac Newton

  29. #29
    Knight of Santiago Member baron_Leo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi
    Yeah, that's not how vassalage worked in the medieval period, not usually anyway.

    Generally one king or lord would agree to be the vassal of the other. He retains his title and authority, but he takes on the responsibilities of a vassal... Just like any of the other king's dukes, this king is expected to provide armies for the sovereign state in time of war, and pay taxes to the sovereign state.

    The point for the winner is that they don't have to go to the expense of finishing the conquest, or garrisoning the conquered province... And the vassal state doesn't have to suffer being fully annexed and occupied.
    Your totally right. And this also means, that the vassal does not lose all of his armies, maybe there is a limitation to their troops. But it would be ahistorical to deny the possibility of breaking free from the heir. As Musashi says look to the vassal nations as they were dukes or other nobles, who were under the king. The King had a closed corona (crown) and all his vassals an open one. They rode to battle under their own flag, but had to be loyal to the ruler. Often vassalage was a really good deal for the vassal (like Hungary-Croatia).
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  30. #30
    Member Member Musashi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ever got a vassal?

    To be honest, the only problem I have with the vassalage system as it stands, is that one of your allies can attack your vassal without it being considered a breach of your alliance with them.

    Historically, if you attacked someone's vassal, you were attacking them.

    And in game terms it means that if you choose to defend your vassal, you'll be considered to be breaking your alliance with the attacker, and YOUR reputation will suffer, when in fact it should be improved by coming to the aid of your vassal, as that was the duty of a chivalrous sovereign, and other nobles would see that as both fitting and noble, admirable even.
    Fear nothing except in the certainty that you are your enemy's begetter and its only hope of healing. For everything that does evil is in pain.
    -The Maestro Sartori, Imajica by Clive Barker

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