Best anti-personnel artillery is ?

[Shahed]

Hi All !

What do people consider the best anti-personnel artillery and why ?

[katank]

Toss up between serpentine and rocket launcher. Serpentine's rate of fire and range is great. Rocket launcher for the devastation it causes upon a single volley, particularly in an enclosed space.

[elbasto]

Elephant artillery ;)

[katank]

LOL, those are a hax unit IMHO. In that vein, elephant rocketeers is even better.

I have a feeling that we'd be discussing field pieces rather than panzerphants.

[IrishArmenian]

Rocket Launcher or Monster Ribault.
Do cannon towers count?

[Kobal2fr]

Depends on context really.
In a flattish field battle, Serpentines are great. They're not too expensive, fire fast, and kill reasonably well.
For hilly terrain, I'd say basilisk, the increased range means that on a hilltop you can almost reach the whole map, or outreach the opponent's arty if you're the attacker. Pricey.
But for sieges, why, I'll take an order of McRibault with a side-order of multi-barreled shotgun death. Supersized please !

[Forward Observer]

My vote for the most versatile and best all around man killing siege engine goes to the lowly ballista. In the first Medieval game the ballista was just not that useful, but as modeled in Medieval 2, with mobility and in the "flame on" mode, it is the equivalent of a medieval RPG and is the work horse of most of my western armies.

Besides being the cheapest and the earliest “big gun” one can acquire, it is also the most consistently accurate--making it not only useful in sieges but also in field battles.

In reality the ballista was more of a Roman period weapon and was hardly used in the middle ages in favor of the heavier stuff like the trebuchet, but what makes it so useful in this game is its consistent accuracy--better than even the gunpowder weapons.

In a siege the ballista can handle any wooden fort and take out the gates of any stone edifice. With enough of them one can actually take out a stone wall. It takes forever and is unrealistic of course, but I actually lost a city defense once to this fact. They also are better than standard archers at sniping troops through and behind the merlins on the walls

Even if I get a message that my spies have opened the gates, I blow them open anyway because many times there will be a unit parked right behind the portal and since the ballista is a flat trajectory weapon you can pick them off right through the portal. Even after I have blown down walls with my heavier stuff, the ballistae is perfect for sniping the units that will move in to block the gap.

Sure, the big boys can take out a large group with one hit, but they only hit bout 20% of the time. The ballista will generally score a hit at least 65% or more of the time, which turns it into a big bore sniper weapon. If one is shooting at troops with deep ranks the ballista can shish kabob quite a few with a single flaming bolt, and if you can manage to flank a unit so you can shoot down their ranks in perfect enfilade you can actually score up to 10 or 12 kia’s with a single two shot salvo. I think 17 dismounted knights was my best score with a single salvo. I have had single 2X ballistae units with 120 plus kill ratios after a battle. I have yet to score as many kills consistently with any other heavy gun.

I think I got about 7 guys in the shot below



In this picture, I only had one ballistae unit with just 8 men left. It had already decimated about 30 men of a feudal knight unit at anther gap when I noticed a 60man halbert unit at about a 60% angle to the wall at the front gate. All that is left is a greasy stain on the ground diagonal to the entrance. I still had enough ammo left to take out 20 to 25 more feudal knights standing next to them.


Here is a shot of a similar situation. I ended up taking out 75 spearmen and all of the generals guard including the general.


When defending, if the attacker has knocked a hole in my wall, most of the time they will not send troops in until they have knocked out any towers and maybe knock down another wall elsewhere. This can give me a chance to move ballista unit into the gap. On several occasions by doing this I was able to completely disable all of the attacker's siege equipment before they could do any real further damage.

In a besieged situation, and if I determine that the attackers are made up of small armies and do not have a their own engines, I sally on the first move. This does not allow them to build towers or rams. Since I play with the timer off, I have to make them rout or take a loss. If they do not have missile units, I simply roll my ballista out the front gates and start pouring it on.

Alternately, if they do have archers, but everybody is safe behind the walls, my absolute favorite tactic is to put together a small hit squad of a couple of ballistae units along with what ever I can spare for protection--maybe a couple of heavy infantry, as many archer units, and some mounted knights. I then take these out one of the side gates and make a wide circle around to come in on the flanks of the attackers.

I will repeat that this only works well if the attacking army is mostly foot troops. If they have a lot of archers (mounted or foot) they may break off to engage your flanking force when you get within their radar, but this can also be circumvented by keeping those enemy archers otherwise occupied by sending a cheap spear unit to stand out in front of the gates as a sacrifice.

The only big choice is whether to go after the enemy's left or right flank. I usually go for their right so I can take out as many troops as possible without harming the commander. From the left you may kill the general too early and they will simply run off

Of course the ballista has to be protected in the field, and as all siege engines they are highly susceptible to cavalry rushes, which makes them much less useful against the Eastern and Mongol type armies. Additionally their range is only slightly better than longbows, so one also has to be careful to try to keep them out of enemy missile range.

Since ballista has a low trajectory they have to be either adjacent to or in front of freindly troops, so one nifty method of protection for a defense is to park the ballista right behind a unit of archers who can plant stakes. After the battle starts, simply move the archers back and the ballista up.

So I humbly submit the ballista as the most versatile all around killing engine in the game and at only 370 florins per unit, the absolute best bang for your man bar-b-que buck.

Cheers

[Blademun]

Awesome post. I will agree that the Ballista is the best artillery for the buck. I still think the very best anti-personell artillery is the serpentine. During extended shootouts, my Serpentines score 100+ kills per unit. Ballistas are great for castle fights tho'. Their dead on accuracy really suprised me. They completely outdid my catapults for kills.

[Shahed]

Excellent post Forward Observer !

[PureFodder]

Sally forth with a couple of Mortars against a full stacked army.
Target whichever unit is in the middle of the formation.
sit back and laugh as they massacre them.

[Sir_Hawkwood]

Defending a siege, I think that mortars are the best.
I've got at least 5 in every border settlement, the rest of the garrison being made up of Bill-scum and Chav*-archers...

Never lost a siege due to the power of the mortar battery.

Outside of that, I tow around Culverins and my old, leveled up ballistas.

I agree with Forward Observer, that when leveled up a ballista is a very dangerous weapon, due to its constant accuracy.

Having said that, I wonder how effective my gunpowder artillery would be right now, had I taken the time to build it up rather than improve my ballistas?

* UK modern slang for Peasants, identified by their large sports logos and cheap chunky jewellery...

[Sheogorath]

I once set up a battle between the Timurids and the Spanish.

The Spanish were loaded down with elites, Terico Pikemen, musketeers, conquistadors.
I had nothing but rockets, a general, and a unit of elephants.
Guess who won?

(Also note, I didnt use the elephants :P)

[Callahan9119]

i used rocket launcher in a little test in custom game, had 1 RL and 1 unit of guns, i had the english against me with 1 unit of guns and a ribault, when the guns got in range of each other and started firing on one another i noticed my gunners were dropping like flies, i was like man those english guns must be goood

i was focused in on the english watching the death animations, i moved the camera on my guys to notice that my rocket launcher wasnt launching so well, and was blowing the crap out of my gunners, even at 50 yards behind them

[Quillan]

Flavius, it's accuracy more than anything. Most of the artillery is rather inaccurate, but the degree of spread is related to the range to target. The farther off it is, the farther off target a round can land. Since trebuchets outrange catapults by a large margin, they are far less accurate at the edge of their range than catapults are at theirs. You have to bring cats into the range of missile troops with the "long range missiles" tag to be able to shoot at them, while you don't with trebuchets. However, there's been a couple of battles where I've had missile duels between 4 units of pavise crossbow militia on my side and 4 units of trebuchets on the part of the enemy, and I won. The trebs are so inaccurate that they can't seem to hit a thin line of troops except rarely. When they DO hit, it causes a lot of casualties, but I typically will only get hit once or twice total during the exchange. Ballistae are a LOT more accurate.

Me, I like trebuchets against walls, but I don't start dragging any artillery to a field battle until post-gunpowder, unless I just happen to get caught by an army marching towards a settlement I intend to take with it.

Now, after gunpowder, I'll bring them along sometimes. Not always, not even regularly, just sometimes. I use a couple of units of culverins/cannons/basilisks to counter the artillery spam the AI likes so much. I've never yet played a faction that had serpentines. The range on culverins and basilisks is just insane. They also make quick work of walls and towers.

[Flavius Gonzo]

OK, I think that makes sense. So, is it safe to say though that at the same distance, catapults & trebs will cause similar damage? The issue as you are describing is that even though trebs can fire further away, at the furthest ranges it's tough to make a direct hit, and therfore not valuable, whereas with cats, you know that if you are in range you get good accuracy, right?

If fought several battles against the Sicilians where I've tried to soften up their line of Pavises with trebs first from a longer distance -- I agree it's tough to get a lot of hits, but the few that you get make a good deal of difference when you bring up your own archers to duel with them.

[katank]

Yep, trebuchets are horribly inaccurate. Also, in a counterbattery situation, the trebuchet just about always loses to catapults simply due to their enormous size (they are too inaccurate to capitalize on their range advantage).

I rarely bring siege in field battles early on now. Prepatch, 2 units of ballistas for flanking + a catapult for kicks are great for masscring the passive AI. Now, they don't get so many shots off and simply slow your movement down.

Postgunpowder, merc rocket launchers are invaluable (esp. in sieges). Haven't had too much experience with other pieces. Panzerphants are a great addition to any army (don't even slow the movement of a cav army).

[Shahed]

In the beginning ofc I did all cavalry, but now if I keep expanding it's a nuisssance to micromanage everything. So I want some more or less static armies, just sitting there at chokepoints, wating to shoot stuff up.

BOOM !!! BANG !!! WOOP de WOOP !!! KAPOW !!! BUAHAHAHHA!!!

[katank]

In most of my Eastern faction games, I use static armies too often.

It's like the blitz. Horse archer/lancer armies punch holes in enemy lines and destroy large stacks in the field. Heavy infantry armies follow up to do siege assault and defense. Lighter infantry/militia do occupation. Waves of agents help with assimilation.

Artillery is great for guarding any bridges or choke points with a defensive stack.

[Von Nanega]

Good screenies F.O. I have begun to use more arty in my armies after reading your posts.

[Quillan]

As the Spanish, I had one battle where I had 2 small armies against one. The army I attacked with was 4 jinetes and 2 mounted crossbows. The reinforcement army was a single swordsman militia and a basilisk. I pinned the rebels with the main army and had enfilade fire with the basilisk. Bowling for rebels, a dozen men per cannonball, right down the line.

[katank]

That's just beautiful. It matches with my general experience that artillery typically has problem finding range (further or closer) while they are pretty good with regard to left-right alignment. Thus, for best results, shoot at flanks.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Hey, with a name like Forward Observer, of course he's going to be good with artillery.

I like the Serpentine - it makes me feel like I'm playing NTW or something. And it can double as a pretty destructive siege engine.

[Shahed]

Yeah, thanks to him I'm using ballistae for the 1st time ever. Thanks FO.

[IvarrWolfsong]

any artie being used by the ai in stainless steel

love the mod but the GPS satelite driven targetting array of on those trebs makes me bananas

The biggest blob of death I ever caused was with an onager. I was Antioch and the Turks were attacking me in the mountains near Damascus / Jerusalem. They were all squished into a chokepoint as they came up the mountain pass. The onager barrel didnt explode and instead landed right in the middle making a big flaming blob of turk-ka-bob. It was over a hundred dead or so because the onager had ~150 kills. Most of the enemy army routed but was rallied by the Sultan's brat.

The flip side is that the enemy came again and was wiped out by my armenian archers and heavy inf. The 3 units of archers had over 200 kills each... I could have scrapped the onager and got more Glendale archers.

[Vladimir]

Catapults. Either defending a bridge or a gate they leave a 10^2 meter area of burnt troops. Quite effective against morale and generals.