My first go with the Turks

[Odin]

I have been playing MTW/STW for a long long time. I dont not have the ability to upgrade my PC for MTW2 so i am back at MTW XL mod.

After looking through the list of countries (for the 1000th time it seems) i passed over my preferred novgorod faction and the English and realized in the hundreds of hours i have played MTW i never made a go of the Turks.

And so i begin. I will start on early, i have read the guide on the board and found the strategies to be good if your a blitzer. i am not really i prefer the turtling approach until i have my ducks in a row.

All this said a couple of questions mates:

1. Turks seem to have a wide variety of troops, which of these gives the best bang for the florin? i prefer horse missle moble armies but have evolved into a combined arms player for sure.

2. Which direction do i head? its either the Byz or Egypt.

3. Ribat and building specilizations by province, if you have a preference.

So any assistance would be great. i play XL mod on VH.

Thanks,

Odin

[Kavhan Isbul]

Generally, when playing with the Turks I try to produce huge numbers of turcoman horse, ghazi infantry, ottoman infantry as archers (in Rum), Armenian Heavy Cavalry in Armenia and saracen infantry.
It's been some time since I last played the Seljuks in XL, but I would probably go for Armenia initially, as the Armenians have a tendency to attack Rum sooner or later, and this can be painful if it coincides with fighting with the Fatimids and Byzantines. The Fatimids (Egyptians) tend to have poor troops (lots of nubian spearmen, desert archers and camels) and little with which to counter horse archers. I will try to hit them early and establish a one-province border with them at the Sinai before they can start transferring Saharan Cavalry. As for the Byzantines - simply wait for them to be at war with Sicily and the Cumans. If you get to Nicea and your fleet protects your borders, then the only way the Byzantines can invade will force them to fight a bridge battle and then even the katanks are easy to deal with. The Seljuks initial strategy should be to get a nice Empire with only three borders - Egypt, Georgia and Nicea or Constantinople (Nicea is easier to defend). Then they can build up their navy, get all the income from trade and slowly expand in whatever direction they want (North Africa is perhaps the best choice military wise and economic wise) while defeating an occasional Crusade in Nicea or Constantinople (if they ever cross).

[Vladimir]

Build up your fortifications in Georgia. If you're brave (or foolish) enough, take Lesser Kazar and max out the fortress, put your best defensive/anti cavalry troops in it, and wait for 1230.

[Odin]

Generally, when playing with the Turks I try to produce huge numbers of turcoman horse, ghazi infantry, ottoman infantry as archers (in Rum), Armenian Heavy Cavalry in Armenia and saracen infantry.
It's been some time since I last played the Seljuks in XL, but I would probably go for Armenia initially, as the Armenians have a tendency to attack Rum sooner or later, and this can be painful if it coincides with fighting with the Fatimids and Byzantines. The Fatimids (Egyptians) tend to have poor troops (lots of nubian spearmen, desert archers and camels) and little with which to counter horse archers. I will try to hit them early and establish a one-province border with them at the Sinai before they can start transferring Saharan Cavalry. As for the Byzantines - simply wait for them to be at war with Sicily and the Cumans. If you get to Nicea and your fleet protects your borders, then the only way the Byzantines can invade will force them to fight a bridge battle and then even the katanks are easy to deal with. The Seljuks initial strategy should be to get a nice Empire with only three borders - Egypt, Georgia and Nicea or Constantinople (Nicea is easier to defend). Then they can build up their navy, get all the income from trade and slowly expand in whatever direction they want (North Africa is perhaps the best choice military wise and economic wise) while defeating an occasional Crusade in Nicea or Constantinople (if they ever cross).

thank you for the tips.

I had just 30 minutes last night so I started a game to see where I was. The Turk starting position is not very attractive at all, those provinces are wastelands that need to be build. That said, the armenians are an obvious first target but thier king is a 5 star general so its not going to be a cake walk considering the starting troops.

Overall it looks like the egyptians are the easy "large" target straight away, but that conflicts with one of my house rules of not attacking same religions unless attacked first.

To start it looks like ghazi infantry are a pretty good value for the bulk of my melee troops, decent stats and with a good general might make it up to very good. There fast but well see how they are in combat tonight.

Anyone else with detailed tips, please post them I do appreciate it.

Odin

[Odin]

Build up your fortifications in Georgia. If you're brave (or foolish) enough, take Lesser Kazar and max out the fortress, put your best defensive/anti cavalry troops in it, and wait for 1230.

I've had my fun with the mongols playing the novgorods and the cumans 50 times over. I might go as far as georgia but I suspect that dealing with a crusade or two will be first and foremost, the mongols will have to wait.

[Scurvy]

When i play as turks, i always take loads of horse archers, as they are simply the most fun unit type in the game.... ghazi are okay for campaign but i prefer to use more solid unit types - spears etc., ghazi's have a nasty habit of dying in large numbers even when they're winning... If you do use gahzis make sure you target weakly armoured units first to chain, and try to flank with their pace, also watch out for cav

i would notmally ally with the armenians first (a costly battle early on against multiple princes and a king doesnt sound too fun) and concentrate on dealing with the egyptians, do your rules include the use of agents against other muslim factions?

[Vladimir]

thank you for the tips.

...the armenians are an obvious first target but thier king is a 5 star general so its not going to be a cake walk considering the starting troops.
Odin

Remember that you outproduce them 2:1. It shouldn't take you more than a turn or two to build the troops you need.

[Odin]

do your rules include the use of agents against other muslim factions?

My general rule is to honor alliances and not attempt to topple Like minded religious allies. I mean i have used cardinals as catholics and burned every general over 4 stars and invaded but i dont go that way any more.

So generally I will maintain:

1. 3-5 assisins (that are valored up)
2. 10 combo spies/priests
3. 1-2 diplomats
4. One senior religous leader (cardinal)

If your an enemy I bring the full compliment of my army/agents/diplomacy to bare, but as a general rule I do not harm allies, makes my games a little more challenging.

[Odin]

Remember that you outproduce them 2:1. It shouldn't take you more than a turn or two to build the troops you need.

True, when I did my initial observation last night he had one heir 2 spears and a archer unit. I'll pepper them to death with arrows, but the only real flanking cav I have early is my kings unit and he is only a 3star general. Considering the armenian king is a 5 I am hesitant to bring my king to bare in that fashion.

SO I am thinking that an invasion of 2-3 horse archers, 3 Ghazi inf, my king and maybe a bedohin camel unit should be enough to get the job done.

[Peasant Phill]

True, when I did my initial observation last night he had one heir 2 spears and a archer unit. I'll pepper them to death with arrows, but the only real flanking cav I have early is my kings unit and he is only a 3star general. Considering the armenian king is a 5 I am hesitant to bring my king to bare in that fashion.

SO I am thinking that an invasion of 2-3 horse archers, 3 Ghazi inf, my king and maybe a bedohin camel unit should be enough to get the job done.

What are you facing? I'm not realy familiar with the Armenian unit roster but I've used the armanian infantry (as mercs) and there excelent troops in early. They have good melee stats with an AP weapon plus they're armed with bows IIRC.

Arm Inf will outshoot your (T)HA and outmelee them, they will survive a ghazi charge (with many causulties) and killing them with your king will just be to costly if it succeeds at all. I don't know about your camels but their just to big and slow not to be living pincushins.

My advice:
- take more missile units so you can soften them up before engaging.
- take at least 1 unit of spears with you, Ghazis are excellent flankers but die to quickly to be your line inf.
- use your HA to isolate the Armenian king before the melee starts. outflanked ghazis are dead in seconds. Besides a tired general/king is far easier to kill.

[Kavhan Isbul]

I do not believe the armenian infantry is a missile infantry - they have only maces, and their main strength lies in their huge number - 100 of them. The Armenians may or may not build a unit of them - most probably they will not. The naxarars are pretty much Kwarizmians in units of 20 men. The ghazis can take care of them easily in a forest, but if you need to face them in the open, you will need a unit of spearmen to hold them before you can hit them with your camels or sultan in the back. Since there are two units of them, at least two units of spearmen are highly recommended. The naxarars are heavily armored and while slow, it will take a loooong time to make a significant impact on them using only horse archers.

[Vladimir]

SO I am thinking that an invasion of 2-3 horse archers, 3 Ghazi inf, my king and maybe a bedohin camel unit should be enough to get the job done.

Overkill. Remember: weapon/counterweapon. And two stars is only one extra valor point. Use a HA unit to lure the general into your Saracen and problem solved. A 3:1 force rule would be nice but don't forget the advantages of hills, forests, etc.

[Peasant Phill]

I do not believe the armenian infantry is a missile infantry - they have only maces, and their main strength lies in their huge number - 100 of them. The Armenians may or may not build a unit of them - most probably they will not.

You may be right as it has been a long time since I used them. However, I use my mercs quit agresively and I remember being pleased with their performance. Just keep in mind that 40 men more per unit is a big deal.

The naxarars are pretty much Kwarizmians in units of 20 men. The ghazis can take care of them easily in a forest, but if you need to face them in the open, you will need a unit of spearmen to hold them before you can hit them with your camels or sultan in the back. Since there are two units of them, at least two units of spearmen are highly recommended. The naxarars are heavily armored and while slow, it will take a loooong time to make a significant impact on them using only horse archers.

The HA's aren't supposed to kill a unit, they're used to disorganise and withle down the enemy so they are easier killed by others. Read the HA guide in the guide forum to see what they can accomplish.

But for the rest it all depends on what the Armenians can field. The 2 units of spears is however advisable.

[Kavhan Isbul]

I have read the guide - it is excellent, and I often use all HAs armies and I have been able to destroy entire units using just HAs. However, unless the AI gives a chase with its spearmen, I really do not see how 2 or 3 units of horse archers can have any serious impact in this particular situation. From what I remember, the Armenians start with a unit of HAs of their own by default in early. Anyway, I am sure Odin will figure it out and win the battle easily. The good thing about most Turkish troops in early is that they are cheap and easy to replace.

[Odin]

The good thing about most Turkish troops in early is that they are cheap and easy to replace.

Yes well said.

They had to spear units (no missles) one bow and two naxarars. I went in with 3 horsebow, 3Ghazi and 2 behdowin camels. After a troop review I had a camel unit with a general that had a skilled attacker trait which bumped him up to a 4star general, so he lead the attack.

The battle played out behing some buildings which made me unecessarily loose some horsearchers. In the end I won the battle but, as others have mentioned Ghazi die fast. I have spent a few turns in consolidation, building some troops and now have 1 3star heir, and 1 2 star heir each at the head of a decent army a strong compliment of troops.

I allied with the egyptians and tonight after the kids are to bed will attack the Byz empire and eventually drive to Nicea. I have turcoman horse, ghazi infantry,and armenian heavies as the primary offensive force and have horsearchers and spears holding with a few camels holding defensive positions against potential egyptian aggression.

Overall I am most surprised by the income potential of the Turks, no issue for me at all as accumen seems to be in abundance and finding good govenors is not hard.

thanks for all the feedback and insights fella's I much appreciate it ! Its been months since I fired up MTW, its been on my harddrive for years for a reason, no matter how long I am away from the game I can always come back and bank on getting yet another 20-30 hours of enjoyable gaming in.

[Sensei Warrior]

...and tonight after the kids are to bed ...

And you have most eloquently pointed out my biggest distraction while trying to work out a strategy. Sometimes so much concentration is required that I have to wait until my wife goes to bed as well.

Aside all that congratulate me its my 300th post.

I have a habit of going death by arrows myself while playing the Turks, but this seems very Early on so you might not quite be their. In that case death by exhaustion ... i mean HAs.

[Odin]

And you have most eloquently pointed out my biggest distraction while trying to work out a strategy. Sometimes so much concentration is required that I have to wait until my wife goes to bed as well.

I usually get the weekend evenings to play my vids now, its just the way life shook out.

So The byz have given me all I can handle, Treb archers are a tough little unit... and to the AI's credit it wasnt bashfull charge them into my Ghazi inf and clogging up my plans. Finally got to Nicea after loosing an heir and a battle in Trebizond (the emperor himself led the relief force). I ended up having to hire some mercs because in all candeor they byzantine lineup of troops is formidable.

Literally just took nicea and havent been able to build it up much, Constantanople is the big prize but he's got 2 stacks and a couple of jedi's waiting for me. So I will sue for peace tonight, take some time to build up the provinces I have, start to build a fleet and will have to bide my time on the invasion.

I did manage to develop an nice heir out of this mess and increase my kings influence by 2 crowns so hopefully the son coming up is born with 4 stars. Eqyptians are slugging it out with the almohads so while the back door seems safe for now my struggle will be to I pour everything into taking Constantanople or do I build up and bide my time? I am a natural turtler but if the situation merits I will blitz, and I have the Byz back pedaling, Im just hoping the Cumans or the hungarians size the day and move toward Bulgaria.

[Geezer57]

When the time is right, you'll probably prefer making an amphibious assault on Constantinople, rather than the river crossing/bridge battle between Nicaea and the Big C. Of course, that presumes naval superiority before making the attempt.
I've made the bridge crossing sucessfully a few times, but it's definitely more of a challenge, and usually results in many more casualties to your armed forces.

Cheers!

[Vladimir]

When the time is right, you'll probably prefer making an amphibious assault on Constantinople, rather than the river crossing/bridge battle between Nicaea and the Big C. Of course, that presumes naval superiority before making the attempt.
I've made the bridge crossing sucessfully a few times, but it's definitely more of a challenge, and usually results in many more casualties to your armed forces.

Cheers!

A 3/4 stack of seige weapons usually has a good chance of taking out the general before your troops cross. I just wish I could remember if cats have the range.

[Odin]

When the time is right, you'll probably prefer making an amphibious assault on Constantinople, rather than the river crossing/bridge battle between Nicaea and the Big C. Of course, that presumes naval superiority before making the attempt.

Cheers!

I stop at nicea and sued for peace. I didnt have a port built yet and had spent a good amount of florins against armenia and the byz. That said I have captured a good swath of land helping my influence and getting me better heirs.

So I spent a good 15 turns committed to build up of provinces disbanding crap units replacing them with better quality, in prep for the final assault on Constantanople. then the egyptians back stab me and attack syria. I had two offensive armies ready to go in armenia (with a port and some dhows built) that had been planned for the byz. 4 turcoman horse archers, 4 armenian heavies 3 sacren infantry and each army had a 4+ star heir and an merc or two artilery unit.

The egyptian units are no match for turk troops and tactics. Literally the only unit I had a modicum with trouble with were nubian spears, but they broke fast. I have pushed the egyptians all the way back to egypt and they are begging for peace. I will take egypt and stop there making that a choke point.

While the egyptian offensive bore fruit by way of influence, rich provinces, and battle expirence it took me away from the main goal of taking Contantanople and making it my capital. I am plaing on hard and I thought the egyptians would have been harder but really they do employ crap units. So I am in consolidation for another decade or so, its about 1145 and the next goal is to still take out the Byz, only now I have a robust navy that allows me to hit greece first and move in from there.

[caravel]

then the egyptians back stab me and attack syria.

Happens every time I'm afraid.

This is why people tend to attack the Egyptians first, before going after the Byzantine. It also makes alot more sense, as the Egyptians are holding 5 of the best provinces in the game.

[Odin]

Happens every time I'm afraid.

This is why people tend to attack the Egyptians first, before going after the Byzantine. It also makes alot more sense, as the Egyptians are holding 5 of the best provinces in the game.

Its logical to attack the egyptians straight away, there units suck quite frankly and ive really had no trouble at all defeating them on my terms and in my time.

I have house rules i play with, I dont attack same religions or allies, unless they attack me first. However on the flip side, it would be a heck of an easier go having those income producing egyptian provinces 1st, then attacking the byz.

[caravel]

Its logical to attack the egyptians straight away, there units suck quite frankly and ive really had no trouble at all defeating them on my terms and in my time.

I have house rules i play with, I dont attack same religions or allies, unless they attack me first. However on the flip side, it would be a heck of an easier go having those income producing egyptian provinces 1st, then attacking the byz.

The Egyptians get nothing much unique, in the way of units, until the high period, where the mamluk units are available. Unfortunately the mamluk units are hardly groundbreaking so they can be dissappointing. Bedouin Camels, Saracen Infantry, Saharan Cavalry and Nubians are about their best units early on. Nizaris take so much teching up that you'll hardly see them fielded by the AI unless they've come from a jihad. Early on it's camels, nubians, desert archers and of course peasants. Combine all that with the few low valour generals (they only get one good general to start with IIRC) in 20 man Ghulam Bodyguard units and you've got a rout waiting to happen.

My strategy as the Turks vs the Egyptians is to Attack Antioch early on. The Sultan in Antioch rarely fights, usually withdrawing to Tripoli. You just have to repeat until you've arrived in Palestine. By this time they probably will fight if you attack Arabia or the Sinai. I tend to wait at this point and let those provinces acclimatise to me rule. Then I launch a two pronged attack to force the 1 province choke point at the Sinai. Egypt follows soon after, unless I want to leave the Egyptians in the game.

The battles that you do fight are simple enough if you deploy Turcoman Horse and shoot out the general first. The rest will then rout once they take a small beating.

To provide a better challenge, and more interesting campaign, it can be an idea to go for only Antioch. Then make peace with the Egyptians (if possible) and move against the Byzantine when you're strong enough.

I play the game modded, so the Fatimids/Ayyubids/Mamluks provide more of a challenge with the +1 valour Bedouin Camels and Arab Infantry (souped up slightly, 100 man unit) in Arabia.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Well, I actually find the Mameluk HAs to be a very nice unit. And the Mameluk Cavalry is very useful against other heavy cavalry, such as order knights or katanks, as long as you can pin them down with saracen infantrymen. I personally do not think that the Egyptian units, even in early before the Mameluks, Abyssinian guardsmen and the arablaesters are weak, as long as they are used properly. Overall, if the Middle East is left alone to the AIs, it is in perhaps as much as 75% of all games that the Egyptians will become the superpower there, but this may be due to the nice income they get and the weak starting position of the Byzantines and the Turks. Once they get to Armenia and start churning out Jihads and Armenian Heavies, the Egyptians can be quite a foe.

[Odin]

Well, I actually find the Mameluk HAs to be a very nice unit. And the Mameluk Cavalry is very useful against other heavy cavalry, such as order knights or katanks, as long as you can pin them down with saracen infantrymen. I personally do not think that the Egyptian units, even in early before the Mameluks, Abyssinian guardsmen and the arablaesters are weak, as long as they are used properly. Overall, if the Middle East is left alone to the AIs, it is in perhaps as much as 75% of all games that the Egyptians will become the superpower there, but this may be due to the nice income they get and the weak starting position of the Byzantines and the Turks. Once they get to Armenia and start churning out Jihads and Armenian Heavies, the Egyptians can be quite a foe.

while that maybe true, the only serious unit I faced was Sacren infantry. Obviously the AI isnt as adept as I am in generalship and its behavior is predictable, but throwing unit after unit of Behdowin camels at me seemed a tradgedy particularly when they took the offensive.

in other games I have played (mind you have played nothing but the XL mod for what a year or more) the egyptians do tend to dominate but its usually at the benefit of the Byzantines demolishing the Turks very early, at least in my expirence.

[caravel]

Well, I actually find the Mameluk HAs to be a very nice unit. And the Mameluk Cavalry is very useful against other heavy cavalry, such as order knights or katanks, as long as you can pin them down with saracen infantrymen.

They're not bad, though Fari are better (better charge) for the same money IMHO. Turcoman Horse are still better overall (cost, building dependency, support, availability, valour bonus in Tripoli, faster) than both though, because they're faster which is all important for HA's. If the Mamluk HAs had been faster than the Faris then they would have been worthwhile. The building dependencies are rather steep also, requiring you to tech up to castle level.

Mamluk Cavalry are another dead duck. Compared with Armenian Heavy cavalry and Ghulam, they fall well short of the mark. The armour piercing attack is not much of a bonus either, as you can employ cheaper Ghazis or Abysinnian Guards to do much the same thing, better. The only good thing is the low building dependency, the bad is the poor charge and higher support costs than AHC.

I personally do not think that the Egyptian units, even in early before the Mameluks, Abyssinian guardsmen and the arablaesters are weak, as long as they are used properly. Overall, if the Middle East is left alone to the AIs, it is in perhaps as much as 75% of all games that the Egyptians will become the superpower there, but this may be due to the nice income they get and the weak starting position of the Byzantines and the Turks. Once they get to Armenia and start churning out Jihads and Armenian Heavies, the Egyptians can be quite a foe.

The egyptians gain the upper hand due to them controlling some of the best provinces in the game. This enables them to pump out units like nobody's business and rush their neighbours. This is why the Egyptians always do the dirty on you, because they can. They tend to glut on low quality troops such as spearmen and peasants, then they invade, e.g. Syria. The Turks will then "decide that they cannot win the battle" and will pull out. In this way the Egyptians win through numbers alone and not quality.

[Kavhan Isbul]

I completely agree with all observations. What I was trying to say was that the Egyptians do not lack any important troop type, even if the one they have is not superior. They have good spearmen in both the Nubians and the Saracens, they have good archers in the desert archers (and later they get crossbowmen, arbalesters and even mameluk handgunners, the latter being useful in desert conditions), they have javelinmen in the Arab Infantry, they get Ghazis, Arab Heavy Infantry, Dismounted Faris and Abyssinian Guardsmen for a wide choice of blade infantry, and they have enough cavalry types - Ghulam Bodyguards, Ghulam Cavalry, Saharan Cavalry, Armenian Heavy cavalry, the two types of Mameluk Cavalry, Faris, Steppe and Steppe Heavies if they get to those provinces, and Kwarizmian cavalry (which I find a bit useless), plus Camels, great for attacking RKs or Ghulam Bodyguards at the back. Yes, they do not have longbowmen, almughavars, Gothic Knights, Variangian Guardsmen, Kataphrakti, Swiss Pikemen and Halberdies, and Turcoman Horsemen or Szekely, but they have all the necessary troops to deal with pretty much any situation.
In contrast, the Almohads cannot get a decent heavy cavalry unit unless they get to Rum, Armenia and Lesser Armenia. The Ghulams are great, but expensive and come only in units of 20. The Turks do not have crossbowmen and arbalesters. Compared to them, the Egyptians can't complain.

[Sensei Warrior]

Hmm, it seems to me that as I think of the Egyptian line up there are no units that make you drool. Varangian Guard, the Byz that's it, no one else gets 'em. Billmen or Longbowmen ditto for the English. AUM ditto for the Almos. The Egyptians ... no one. There is no stand out exclusive unit for them, at least not as I recall. It seems like the Egypts got shorted in the cool unit department.

With that said, in the case of playing the Turks, the Egyptians have only 2 units, Peasants and Mounted Peasants (Camels). Thats it, they are Peasant Spammers. I used to make the rush to Constantinople and secure my northern and eastern borders because, in my mind, the Byz was the bigger threat. If they get up and running they are very dangerous.

The Egyptians always did the dirty to me, and usually in Syria. I'd choke to see the 9000 man army cross the border to give me the boot, that is until I'd see the lineup. Hmm, 'bout a 50-50 split between .... you guessed it Peasants and more Peasants (Camels). So 1/2 an hour later I'd have a general who is a Skilled Defender after a huge slaughter. It's a wonder they have any farmers left considering I'd massacre thousands if not tens of thousands in my push towards Egypt.

Now adays I tend to trap the Egyptian Sultan in Antioch and sell or kill him off. Then rush to wipe Egypt off the map before they rev up the Peasant machine. Of course if you don't want to unify the Muslim world then use them to train up your generals, heirs, assassins, and what not as they try to sweep you away in a dirty, smelly sea of Peasants.

[Odin]

I completely agree with all observations. What I was trying to say was that the Egyptians do not lack any important troop type, even if the one they have is not superior. They have good spearmen in both the Nubians and the Saracens, they have good archers in the desert archers (and later they get crossbowmen, arbalesters and even mameluk handgunners, the latter being useful in desert conditions), they have javelinmen in the Arab Infantry, they get Ghazis, Arab Heavy Infantry, Dismounted Faris and Abyssinian Guardsmen for a wide choice of blade infantry, and they have enough cavalry types - Ghulam Bodyguards, Ghulam Cavalry, Saharan Cavalry, Armenian Heavy cavalry, the two types of Mameluk Cavalry, Faris, Steppe and Steppe Heavies if they get to those provinces, and Kwarizmian cavalry (which I find a bit useless), plus Camels, great for attacking RKs or Ghulam Bodyguards at the back. Yes, they do not have longbowmen, almughavars, Gothic Knights, Variangian Guardsmen, Kataphrakti, Swiss Pikemen and Halberdies, and Turcoman Horsemen or Szekely, but they have all the necessary troops to deal with pretty much any situation.
In contrast, the Almohads cannot get a decent heavy cavalry unit unless they get to Rum, Armenia and Lesser Armenia. The Ghulams are great, but expensive and come only in units of 20. The Turks do not have crossbowmen and arbalesters. Compared to them, the Egyptians can't complain.

Its hard to argue, you make a strong case and I agree that the egyptians do have a good selection of troop types, sadly for me they chose not to employ them when they attacked.

The Turks do not have crossbowmen and arbalesters. Compared to them, the Egyptians can't complain.

this is a great observation and one that has me thinking of the future of my expansion into Europe. it looks like I am going to have to have some merc units to counter the crossbows/arbalesters.

[Odin]

Now adays I tend to trap the Egyptian Sultan in Antioch and sell or kill him off. Then rush to wipe Egypt off the map before they rev up the Peasant machine. Of course if you don't want to unify the Muslim world then use them to train up your generals, heirs, assassins, and what not as they try to sweep you away in a dirty, smelly sea of Peasants.

this is a popular strategy as per the guide here on the org. Cant argue with its effectiveness, the sultan does sit in Antioch an awful long time and its almost a no brainer to isolate him and ransom him.

Personally i think its an exploit on a poor choice of AI positioning. Effective yes, but the game needs players integrity (not suggesting you dont have it mate) to make the game a full challenge.