Topics in Religion: Christianity, Part II

[Divinus Arma]

Previously in Topics in Religion, we discussed the theological perspective of Christianity and the various interpretations that have developed over the centuries. Various points of debate included the trinity concept, the relationship of original sin to human evolutionary development, and the biblical timeline.

I would like to now focus on two hypothetical situations which, while blasphemous and heretical, may or may not generate new perspective for both Christians and non-Christians by challenging convention.


Firstly, let us imagine a modern world where Jesus had never existed. Even for non-believers of the divinity in Christ, it is safe to assume with a moderate measure of confidence that a Jesus individual had existed, given that the figure of Jesus is the single most researched topic in human history. It stands to reason that had Jesus not existed whatsoever, evidence of this using modern objective research would quickly overwhelm the contrary.
It is clear that technological advances would have continued regardless as would have the discoveries of the Americas, and in science, and in medicine, et cetera. So what would our modern world be today? What would be written in our history books and how would our culture be affected?


Secondly, how long into the future will Christianity persist into the future while it waits for the apocalypse and second coming of Christ? The human race is yet within its infancy and the history of modern technology is merely a single generation of man. What then in another 10,000 years of man's existence, assuming we do not destroy ourselves before then and assuming we even prosper to that time? This relates clear to the first question, and I wonder- what will our culture be like when Christianity is cast aside along with pagan superstition?

[Mooks]

Christrianity will never ever be cast aside.

...I think islam would be the dominant faith in europe.

[Strike For The South]

Christrianity will never ever be cast aside.

...I think islam would be the dominant faith in europe.

So you are willing to give it up?

[Kanamori]

Had Jesus not existed, the things that Jesus had, and also being inseparable from him, would not be here, e.g. Jesus' love. Any of his effects on the world wouldn't necessarily either happen or not happen if the world were to start over and the Christian God didn't necessarily exist, for better or worse.

Christianity doesn't appear to be on the course of apocalypse just yet, and it cannot be foretold with knowledge, unless of course God really does talk to someone... anyway, I probably won't be that person, and I'll have no reason to believe them unless God actually talks to me... when I'm not on Psychedelics.

[Navaros]

Firstly, let us imagine a modern world where Jesus had never existed. Even for non-believers of the divinity in Christ, it is safe to assume with a moderate measure of confidence that a Jesus individual had existed, given that the figure of Jesus is the single most researched topic in human history. It stands to reason that had Jesus not existed whatsoever, evidence of this using modern objective research would quickly overwhelm the contrary.
It is clear that technological advances would have continued regardless as would have the discoveries of the Americas, and in science, and in medicine, et cetera. So what would our modern world be today? What would be written in our history books and how would our culture be affected?


Secondly, how long into the future will Christianity persist into the future while it waits for the apocalypse and second coming of Christ? The human race is yet within its infancy and the history of modern technology is merely a single generation of man. What then in another 10,000 years of man's existence, assuming we do not destroy ourselves before then and assuming we even prosper to that time? This relates clear to the first question, and I wonder- what will our culture be like when Christianity is cast aside along with pagan superstition?

Apocalypse is coming soon by all the signs evident around today. Ie: USA invading Iraq for no legitimate reason, every person needing to be marked to buy or sell anything (such as how one needs the marks of a bank card and government-issued number and many other things in order to live in today's society). Mankind won't get to another 10 000 years, so no need to even worry about that.

Christianity will never totally go away because unlike pagan superstition, Christianity is based in total truth.

However, if one wants to see what culture is like without Christianity, one merely needs to look at today's so-called "society".

In general, as society becomes less Christian, it becomes more of a repugnant cesspool. Ie: sees fit to legally murder it's own children as well as glorify and encourage all forms of debauchery and evil.

Without Jesus this devolution of civilized society into a repugnant cesspool would have occurred much sooner. Jesus' influence had delayed that devolution somewhat.

[doc_bean]

Well, Jesus, as an historical figure, probably wasn't the only one who thought the way he did in his time, so we might have had a 'different' Jesus. Since christian faith was only 'formalized' later the world might have ended up being pretty much the same.

I think it would have been likely for mankind to 'move up' to monotheism, even, without the rise of Christianity we might have started following a similar, monotheistic faith. Again, since christianity changed so much during its existence, we might have ended up with a very similar world.

About the apocalypse watchers: people were certain the world was going to end in 1000AD, there are always going to be people who think the end is nigh. Perhaps the percentage is higher now because change is happening so fast.
Besides, not all christian faiths 'wait' for judgement day, at least from my experience in mass, the Catholics don't see it coming anytime soon. Perhaps certain versions which focus on doom-and-gloom scenarios will become less popular and eventually die out ?

[KrooK]

Jezus was a historical figure and Islam will be never dominating into Europe :)
As for now Islamists have kind of problem because they are fighting their holy wart using Russian weapon and American communication system.

[Pannonian]

Besides, not all christian faiths 'wait' for judgement day, at least from my experience in mass, the Catholics don't see it coming anytime soon. Perhaps certain versions which focus on doom-and-gloom scenarios will become less popular and eventually die out ?

You've forgotten another brand of pro-active Christians who don't wait for judgement day, but actively create the conditions to bring it about. For these end-timers global warming is a good thing, since it will end the world after which the Lord will raise the believers to heaven and condemn the sinful to hell. Related to this is Christian Zionism, those literalists who believe that Jewish control of the holy lands is the precursor to the end, when Jews, Muslims and other heathens alike will convert or be condemned by the Lord's judgement. Most east-ponders think these ideas are nuts, which relates to why Islam will never be the dominant religion in Europe - Europeans as a whole have got over the whole religion thing, so no religion will ever achieve dominance as long as our enlightened cynicism holds.

[AntiochusIII]

Wait, you guys are waiting for the Apocalypse?

Crap. Go ahead with your Apocalypse, then, but don't bring me with you.

Seriously, though, the two hypotheticals are predictions and situations that do not happen. The variables are far too many to say what would be the most plausible outcome.

For example, if Jesus has been disproven, the theoretical assumption stands to imply that Christianity has also been disproven, and thus invalid. But examples in the past show that humans do not work by logic and facts, but perception...

Will there be movements in attacking Christianity once it has been disproven? What would those movements be like? Violent or peaceful? Academic or grass-roots? How large, how many? What response would they inspire? Success, or only strengthening the resolve to resist among the believers? Would that fact even acquire attention in the first place?

Or would religion simply reduce in importance as society continues to develop further, unrelated to this? Would religion return to the forefront, whether by catastrophic events or some serious changes in our society's nature?

In fact, where would society develop to? What would it look like a century from now?

These are questions not easily answered. The past post those same questions to us (What is the result of that? Why? What follows? Why? What has been changed? What is changing? What will change? Why?), and historians painstakingly take themselves to explore all the cause and effects and the impact of events, trends, and mere fortune -- all this with the important distinction that the past has already happened -- and the work won't be done anytime soon. To replicate the process for something that simply hasn't happened is an impossibility.

[Mooks]

Every generation thinks its THEIR generation which is going to experiance the apocolypse. Iv actually been told numerous times that it is most likely going to happen in the next 50 years at least. Personally, im not making any assumptions because I hate being proven wrong.

[Moros]

Oh well Appcalypse or not, surely I will once take over hell and make it pie-land. Too bad everyone will behave bad to be able to come to pie-land. But what the hell (hmmm...bad choice of words...).

Seriously, Islam conquer Europe? Not anytime soon. Europe is a bit to areligious if you ask me. Tough I have this feeling that we'll slowly but surely are going to be more religious again. When times get darker again. Maybe Islam will come. Maybe one day some wierdo pretens he's the messias and we'll believe him and become "whatever-ists". Who knows, nobody is my guess.

If Jezus wouldn't have existed (the historical guy) there wouldn't be that much difference. I guess. There have been quite alot of prophets. And Monotheïsm existed before Jezus. Someone like Mohammed would have taken his place. Technology? Well it would have been different maybe the religion would have been more pro science and we would have been earlier on many discoveries. But also later on otherthings. It's not that the world would be the same, far from it. But it would have the same fundaments. Scientific progress would be made, be it slower, be it faster, be it different. Territorial and political it would also ahev it's influence. But the same basic principels in War, in diplomacy would have been the same. The enemy of my enemy still would be my (temporar) freind,.... Culturally it would have also it's affects, but there would have been times of rebellion against the old tradition. Just as there would have been times that they's go back to them. The world would have changes, but principles and fundaments (and I don't mean any bodyparts, though I guess they'd be the same) would be the same.

[rory_20_uk]

First off, I do not feel that the existence of Jesus is firm historical truth, or more specifically whether he was one person, or a collection of different people. This would help explain the differences between the events in the Gospels, the differences that are seen in the non-canonical works and also that we have a 18 year gap between Jesus as a child and Jesus the man.

So, Navros, I'm afriad your distinction between the clearly stupid Pagan beliefs and your belief in the "total truth" of the bible has more to do with you than evidence. The different sects and their disagreement shows the "total truth" is harder to find than one would have thought...

There will always br religion. Already people follow a religion when most have no idea about the whole Bible.

[yesdachi]

Firstly, let us imagine a modern world where Jesus had never existed.

If not Jesus then someone or something would have risen to fill the religious void, historically, people need a god of some sort to justify their actions and make them feel all snuggly inside as they lie in bed at night after a hard day of sinning.


I could see traditional Christianity being abandoned for a more popular off shoot but the church has been pretty good at bending to what is popular and trendy. I think the only way Christianity will disappear is if another power with a different religion were to take over the Christian areas.

[rory_20_uk]

First off, I do not feel that the existence of Jesus is firm historical truth, or more specifically whether he was one person, or a collection of different people. This would help explain the differences between the events in the Gospels, the differences that are seen in the non-canonical works and also that we have a 18 year gap between Jesus as a child and Jesus the man.

So, Navros, I'm afriad your distinction between the clearly stupid Pagan beliefs and your belief in the "total truth" of the bible has more to do with you than evidence. The different sects and their disagreement shows the "total truth" is harder to find than one would have thought...

There will always br religion. Already people follow a religion when most have no idea about the whole Bible.

[RabidGibbon]

A world without Jesus (or the Jesus/ Monotheistic figure proposed above) would have been, I feel, very different. The Modern world has ultimately been shaped by Europe and its big bouncing baby, the US of A. Certainly one of the dominant factors (if not the dominant factor) in the creation of Europe is Christianity. Anyone doubting the unifying power of Christendom on Europe should look at a map, Europe stops more or less were the Christian faith ceases to be dominant.

Unlike Divinus Arma I don’t take it as read that advances in Science would have proceeded regardless of the absence of a Catholic Church. The fact that throughout the turmoil of the early middle ages and the rise of the “Barbarian Kingdoms” there was always an intellectual elite who tried to preserve knowledge, which transcended national boundaries and shared a universal language must have counted for something in terms of “Culturally accumulated knowledge”. Balanced against this benefit however has to be counted the trauma of the religious was that have accompanied Christendom. The 30 years war and the Crusades wouldn’t have been missed I think.

However, given that in the “Secular” 20th century we managed to fit in 200% more world wars than our ancestors perhaps War will always find a way.

Ultimately I suspect that Today in this alternate world might look very different to the Today we live in, and I think that to Western observers it would seem to be a worse place, less prosperous, less enlightened and generally less knowledgeable. Those who were on the receiving end of western European imperialism (Which more or less justified itself through claiming missionary type status) might disagree however.

As to what will our society look like when it has thrown away Christianity I think its important to remember that Christian values aren’t merely ingrained on modern day societies perceptions of right and wrong, they are modern days societies perceptions of right and wrong. Look at the Ten Commandments, if you lose the first four then almost anyone you meet on the street will agree with you that 5 - 10 are perfectly reasonable requirements for a decent human being (Although some might just be saying that to humour the weirdo who‘s just accosted them on the street to talk about the 10 commandments).

Cheers.