Saddam Hussein's execution: V

[Banquo's Ghost]

econ21's thread got lost in a glitch with the database, so I have deleted that attempt and have his permission to re-post what he wrote.

Please let's keep this discussion civil as he requests.

We've had three locked threads connected to Saddam's execution. But it seems sad if the Backroom can't discuss a current event as salient as this, so let's try a fourth time to get a thread that does not need to be locked.

I want to have a go with a fourth thread, because the execution has created a strong, negative, feeling in me that I don't think has been articulated so far.

When I first realised that Saddam was likely to be executed - long ago, at the start of his trial - I had mixed feelings. I could see the Nuremburg analogy and I reviled the man. But confronting the reality has hardened my view against it. Seeing an old man with a noose around his neck, surrounded by hooded executioners, is a disturbing image. It reminds me of those awful "snuff" videos of the terrorists and their soon to be beheaded orange clothed prisoners. It invokes pity and sadness because it shows a man about to die. And it angers me because my government (the UK) has been complicit in what led up to it and because it lowers "our side" to a level perilously close to that of Saddam and the jihadi terrorists. I would like to say that we don't kill people in cold blood, that we don't torture, that we don't deprive people of liberty for years without trial. But I can't.

I am against capital punishment and in essence, the issue of capital punishment is almost all this case boils down to. But, like most red blooded people, I can momentarily waiver in my opposition to the death penalty when faced with a specific heinous crime or monstrous criminal. Yet, somehow, Saddam's case just reinforced my opposition to any executions.

This is despite my firm belief that Saddam was a gangster and a particularly murderous one. And I have no reasonable doubt that he committed the crime for which he was executed, as well as many more.

But there is just something repellant in coldly taking a helpless man's life. If in war, an enemy soldier is pointing a gun at you, I would have no hesitation in saying kill him. I am not a pacifist. But to take a man's life when there is a simple non-violent alternative (life imprisonment) just seems wrong. I know I can't persuade anyone of that view - it's axiomatic; you either share it or you do not. A life has an instrinsic value, whether it's that of an old mass murderer in a cell, or a newborn baby in Iraq. Taking it unnecessarily seems disrespectful of humanity, malign and I want to say devoid of love, to use the language probably derived my Christian upbringing.

I am generally suspicious of "slippery slope" arguments, but they do seem to apply here. Once you start killing people in cold blood, it becomes easier to contemplate launching a missile into an Al Jahazeera office because you don't like their message, taking a few captured insurgents round the back to be summarily executed or poisoning a dissident who is agitating against you. Executions seem to entail a state sponsored level of brutality that weaken our sensibilities and defenses against lethal abuses of state power.

Will there be an instrumental benefit in having taken Saddam's life? To be honest, I don't really care. That's not the point. You could make arguments either way, although it does not seem auspicious (some Iraqi Sunnis apparently viewing the execution as a declaration of war).

Maybe we can't discuss this issue in a civilised manner. Maybe the battlelines are too clearly drawn. It's too much a case of "one for our side!" and "gotcha!". American soldiers are being killed every week in Iraq and Saddam, probably wrongly, is identified as the figurehead of the killers. (If it were OBL instead of Saddam on the gallows, I might momentarily waiver again. But after this experience, I doubt it.) But let's try to discuss it without flames or cheap shots.

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

I like to put it like this:

If two men ride down a street and kill an 8 year old child for no reason, should they get the death penalty?

So if a dictator gasses and kills an entire village because of one assasination attempt, should he be put to death? Remember, these were unarmed civilians, women and children too.

[Vuk]

YAY! It's about time!
No offence to any terrorists here, but I'm really glad this happened. :D

[scooter_the_shooter]

I have a link to the real thing (not the edited one I put in the video thread)


If anyone wants to see it pm me. It'd be pretty terrifying to be in his shoes. It's bad enough they were about to hang him but it seemed like they were chanting at him while doing it.

I don't think they should have leaked it but...if it's out there I figured I might as well watch it.

[KukriKhan]

I have mixed feelings similar (though not identical) to econ21's with capital punishment in general.

But regarding Mr. Hussein: it's not my country, or my court system, or my legislature - so I am entitled to no opinion, in my opinion; rather like I view Texas executions.

That said, the taunting by masked executioners, seems unprofessional in the extreme to these Western eyes.

[Divinus Arma]

Saw it. Thanks SFTS.

[scotchedpommes]

Does professionalism come into it at all? Not in my view. The entire trial itself
was a mockery, and the process [taunting included or not] itself was enough to
add significantly to the hatred felt across that part of the world.

[Brenus]

Yeap, it was a great moment of justice. A court where judges were removed, lawyers killed… And the execution by hooded executioners was just the mirror of the trial. Were they scared or ashamed to participate? Were they obliged or did they volunteer? It wasn’t Nuremberg… It wasn’t even The Hague, the political court. It was a revolutionary trial without the St Just as prosecutor and his sentences (no freedom for the enemies of freedom…). It was a farce where nothing was explained, and brought to the light. Saddam was guilty, and was sentenced and executed for a crime he did commit. But when will we learn about Hallabjah, the war against Iran, the slaughter of the Arab of the swamp? He was executed for the lesser crime, and Chirac, Rumsfeld and all the politicians who sold him weapons and went to shake his hands can now breathe freely. They won’t have to answer difficult questions, even if the chances were even narrower than for Milocevic’s trial…
Well done, and mission accomplished…

[Banquo's Ghost]

I have mixed feelings similar (though not identical) to econ21's with capital punishment in general.

But regarding Mr. Hussein: it's not my country, or my court system, or my legislature - so I am entitled to no opinion, in my opinion; rather like I view Texas executions.

That said, the taunting by masked executioners, seems unprofessional in the extreme to these Western eyes.

The concerns I have from the apparent taunting and the release of the unofficial recording are twofold:

First, the taunts seem to be very sectarian as the name of Moqtadr al-Sadr was prominent. This further enhances the view that this was a simple revenge by the Shia dominated government rather than a judicial execution. Sunnis were already going to be alienated by the sentence, this appears to be extra salt in the sectarian wound. And if al-Sadr is associated with Saddam's execution, this builds his power base evn more among the Shia. (Remeber that this fellow is hardly supportive of the occupation, US influence or indeed the current government).

Second, Saddam actually came off as dignified and somewhat courageous, challenging his tormentors and belying the official government propaganda that he went to his death a cowed and frightened man.

The latter is probably as irrelevant in the long run as his execution, as the insurgency has moved a long way past being the remnants of the old order. The former, sectarian impact will just deepen divisions.

If the execution had to happen (and everyone knows my views, so I'll not go there) it should have been controlled much more professionally. I can fully understand why the US did not want to be involved, but the tawdry spectacle will not have helped their cause.

[Divinus Arma]

I agree that it came across as very unprofessional and primitive. This is exactly how an execution should not be done.

I would have been more satisified with a hospital setting, even for the gallows. White walls, brightly lit, professional uniforms, and total silence except for the presence and speech of a judge or supervisor. The execution should have been delayed by the slightest hint of unprofessionalism.

This only makes the process appear corrupt.

I am very dissapointed.