Need Some Help With RTW

[Carl]

Finally got RTW working and decided to fire it up, (DUH!), Played the tutorial, (but didn't finish it TBH, just played the explained bits plus a few extra turns).

Then tried a Scipi long campaign, got rid of the Carthaginians eventually, but I was left feeling exposed and vulnerable so I quit that campaign and went for a Juili short one. Had more luck here:

I went straight north and grabbed the two provinces immediately north of my starting position then went west along the coast, following the gauls into Spain and diverting north to grab a gual settlement that was leftover. However I had the Brittanica and Germanics on my back by this time along with Spanish and had lost both coastal cities between Italy and Spain as well as the northern one I grabbed from the gauls. The problem is that i keep getting hit when my armies are too far away to respond and the towns aren’t well developed enough to get Hastari out and Town Watch and peasants aren’t good enough. (I tend to keep 4 units of Watch per city plus random presents for transferring population around, not that it helps over much). Although 4 or 5 units of peasants did a good number on some Brittanica chariots.

I've read the guides but they assume that your a lot better at diplomacy than I am and the people writing them seem to be able to reinforce besieged towns in time.

They also seem to have much better developed cities.

I'm not after a complete walkthrough, but I would appreciate a bit more detail on what I should be focusing on and what kind of basic everyday things I need to worry about. Moneys never a problem BTW, I just never have enough towns around to spend it in.

[Roman_Man#3]

it seems you are going a bit to fast if you are just starting. when you take a city, take time to develop it a bit. Choose your next victim carefully. Dont always go to the closest town to you. You have just under 600 turns, which is more than enough to take the whole map. So i would suggest slowing down the pace a bit, take time to develop your cities. Food for thought.

[Carl]

Thanks for the limit numbers, I thought I had like 200 and I was about 30-50 in when I got hit hard, (where is the turns counter located as I haven’t been able to spot it?). I was hurrying to make sure I got enough done to complete the objectives. I had only had 1 faction leader die by this point and at my peak I had 10 territories, that should give you an idea of how far in i was BTW. Your right though I think I went too fast, the guide made me suspect that, thanks for confirming it. Any tips on keeping diplomatic relations up too?

TBH part of my problem is I’ve never played any other TW game before, loving it ATM mind, just hard even on E/E difficulty. (Well not the battles, just the campaign map). Loving the combat especially, fun to take armies of half peasant and half Town Watch up against numerically inferior but much better quality troops.

Which Roman Faction is the easiest to play as in your opinion, might make it easier for me to use that one?

Thanks for the help.

[Roman_Man#3]

i can tell you it goes to 14 ad. and two turns per year.

[Discoman]

You also should try making an alliance with Spain and Britannia. Spain stays neutral and never really becomes a threat unless you let them be one. The Brits will eventually (well usually) end up fighting the Germans, which makes the Germania a good target after fighting the Gauls. I'd say your main mistake was going into spain. Just worry about the Gauls and remember to take the rebel settlements near the alps and southern Germany for future use.
In my opinion you weren't going too fast, you just weren't using your strength in the right places. I've gone at faster paces and took out Germany by the time Marcus Julius (3rd generation Julii) was in his 20's. Infact my orginal faction leader was still alive when I killed off the Gauls and took over France. When it comes to troops get hastia from your two starting settlements and upgrade your newer settlements economy/military strength while conquering. Use mercenaries and most importantly use calvary to flank Gaulish troops, considering they have very poor morale.
But go at any pace your comfortable with, during my first time playing it took me alot of time to take over spain, france, britain and germany. Also if you think these guys are threatning wait until you end up fighting the Brutii.

[Carl]

I went into Spain because that was where the last two Gaul settlements where and I wanted to wipe them out, the Brittanian's and Germanics where allied AGAINST me in the campaign that went wrong.

Tried a new campaign with the Juli, taken the Gaul provinces in Italy and then Built forts at all the ways in, then gone after the Carthaginians.

Had more luck developing this time, but a big part of my problem is that most settlements only have 500-100 population after I occupy/Enslave them, so as a result I never seem to be able to get the Hastashi building up. My Best City ATM is captured carthage, as it's the only place where I can Build Priceps or Cavalry Axuillia. I did use mercenaries, but by that point my enemy was never anywhere near my main army, so it didn't matter. This time I’m sending multiple Faction members into the field and thus can split my armies as necessary. Before I only had 1, (the army leader), outside of Italy.

The diplomacy is badly borked IMHO, even when I offer an even trade (map for map), it's saying I’m being too generous and they can't accept. I’ve now got 2 diplomats with NEGETIVE influence because of that. It also makes it impossible to keep allies happy and has started a couple of wars.

Fortunatly the forts are keeping them at bay.

[Roman_Man#3]

You seem to be doing better now, but I might suggest sticking to equites instead of cavalry auxilia. Equites are good flanking troops, and they are fast, while the Cavalry auxiliamight be fast, but they have a limited number of pila or javelins, they are bad melee. Use velites and equites instead in my opinion. After you play a while and get more experience, you should notice which sities have big populations. The larger the pop., the harsher your punishment should be. Small little towns deserve an ocupation, larger ones deserve enslavement, and the largest deserve extermination.

RM3


ps. Remember what culture they are, if they are your culture, occupy the small and larger cities, while enslave the even larger cities. Keep in mind this won't always work, so keep your ears and eyes open.

[Carl]

Actually I am sticking to Equites, I’m not much good with missile cavalry, however it is further up the tech tree than Equties and I was using it to help show my level of advancement. Just quit that campaign (it all went pear shaped after I posted that, with a couple of big Carthaginian armies wrecking Carthage and the region south of it rebelling). Tried a quick Gaul campaign and eliminated the Julii in 5 turns, with the option of moving on to the Brutii or the rebels around me. Apart from The Roman Senate I could probably have completed the short campaign objectives in another 5 turns, but I suspect 2 or 3 full armies would be needed for Senate army

Will probably drop that campaign and go back to the Scipii now I know what I’m doing better as the Gaul’s are a bit boring to fight with and against, mostly because of the small settlement size making it hard to get anything near the frontline up to speed. Carthage has good pop cities so I can use enslavement to get my cities up to speed in a hurry.

In general I agree with you though now. Enslaving small settlements doesn’t seem to do much good for my overall population and hurts the settlement taken. I might well have to exterminate some, although I'm preferring enslave, let rebel and enslave again in the case of big cities, much more fun IMHO.

[Roman_Man#3]

what ever floats your boat!

[Carl]

Well I wasn't sure if the rebel/enslave was going to work when I put that up, I’d done it experimentally once.

Tried it again just now and it works fine though. The thing was, I noticed that if I destroyed buildings to get rid of the culture penalty their was a tendency to rebel, so I figured if I encouraged it then got more slaves out of it I got to bring the natives down to size whilst getting my other cities developed at the same time.

The best point, Carthage has just rebelled and then the senate gave me a mission to take it. It's going to be so much fun getting money for doing what I was going to do anyway, (most of the time the senate give me missions I’m not interested in that get me into wars I don't want).

Scipii are a good faction too as they can get some big cities early on and thus good troops. on the downside they have bigger enemies and the Grab, Enslave, Destroy, Rebel, Grab Enslave cycle slows down the initial economy.

A lot easier than the Julii one I was doing though. Mostly because I actually can get access to decent troops and cities easily.

Taking Syracuse made me hate Hoplites though, their murder if defending a narrow space.

The only trouble is an annoying tendency for big elite armies full of top quality troops to spawn in the settlements. Gets annoying as they can be hard to dislodge. Fortunately, I use a big army, nearly a full stack when you add on the mercenaries.

Thanks for all the hep though, you pointed me in the right direction. It was a case of too much too soon, coupled with poor managment of setelments and armies ealry on that was getting me.

[Roman_Man#3]

glad to hear that you solved your problem.


RM3


ps. A hint to help you solve your problem with Syracuse. The greeks tend to send out the bulk of their forces as a field army after the first turn, leaving like a unit of militia hoplites and what not. Attack then. Or build ladders and kill the hoplites on the walls. Romans are second to none for taking walls.

[jhhowell]

You seem to be doing better now, but I might suggest sticking to equites instead of cavalry auxilia. Equites are good flanking troops, and they are fast, while the Cavalry auxilia might be fast, but they have a limited number of pila or javelins, they are bad melee.

I could not disagree more. Missile cavalry dominates this game. Cav Aux can do everything Equites can, and they whittle down enemy units with javelins beforehand. The only down side is the higher tech building for retraining.

If Equites were tougher (Legionary Cav, for example), there's a legitimate trade-off to consider. But they're just basic light cav, if they do anything other than pursuit, charge missile troops, or do a flank charge to get a quick rout, they'll get chewed up very quickly. Same as Cav Aux (or the Greek Militia Cav, with whom I have quite a lot more experience).

For a new player, putting off the jav cav is plausible though. It takes some practice to get full effect from them (Carl, play a Seleucid or Greek Cities game to get that practice!).

Regarding other topics, you shouldn't need to let a city rebel once you've taken it. A large city should be manageable after one extermination, and small towns are fine to occupy as is. Bear in mind that you usually have to keep a decent army in place for garrison duty for a while, at least until your peasant/town watch numbers build up. It sounds like you may be too quick to destroy some buildings - remember you can also get rid of the culture penalty by "overwriting" the building with the next higher tech version, if applicable. Make sure you can keep the people happy before trashing the temple. Arenas can help, since you can buy games to adjust happiness. If you absolutely must let a city rebel, destroy all the troop buildings first, that way the rebels will be all peasants (playing the WRE in BI gives one some practice with this...).

As you're seeing, the Scipii are nice; I'd rate them a bit easier than the Julii (better temples, richer cities to take).

Don't worry about the diplomacy, there really isn't any meaningful diplomacy in this game. Get your trade agreements, maybe trade and/or buy maps if you want, and bribe enemy armies to taste. That's about all you can hope to do.

[Carl]

@jhowell: my main problem with missile cav, (based on experiences with Numidian horsemen mercenaries), is that as soon as they get into range they get attacked by enemy units, even foot units can cover the distance fast enough to prevent them getting a volley of and then escaping scot free. I have the issue even worse with Peltasts and such like, (they're good fodder in sieges though).

I tend to let it rebel because the time it would take to get the city under control enough to move a sizable force away, I could have let it rebel and retaken it and got it in order that way, doing that gives me more population in the rest of my cities and more loot too. As well as command stars and unit experience for my armies and generals.

Only trouble is I’ve just got a defeat immanent sign and am a long way off beating it. got 7 out of the 15 [provinces and can't find the last Carthaginian one and I haven’t even started on the Numidians.

ATM I was actually getting ready to start on the numidians, I’d just got a force of 5 Equites trained and 4 Ballista, was going to send that plus some of the retrained Hastati into one army to hit all the African territories east of Carthage. Whilst my 1/3rd stack of family member cavelry and the rest of the retrained Hastati plus some mercs hit the Numidians, Rebels and Egyptians to east of Carthage, (I got the one south-east of tharepes (bad spelling sorry)).

A Third army would be trained up one My legionary Barracks had finished on Sicily, (was dedicated each settlement to the production of a different unit class, Syracuse was archer, Liyrmidia was Cav, and the other was going to be Infantry), That would go by ship to where I needed it.

Trouble is I think the Egyptians have me.

Is their any way of removing the Fog of War so I can see where those Carthaginians have got to? and look at how everyone else is doing before I lose?

[Roman_Man#3]

To take out fog of war hit the `/~ button, then type toggle_fow, and hit enter.

there are numerous other cheats you can put in there, but we don't talk of such things at this most honourable of places.

[Carl]

Of course not. Mostly I don't think I can win and I want to see if I can't figure out where I went wrong by lookingat what the comps ben up to. Normally I don't use cheats till i've completed the game so often it's getting stale. It's a good way to liven things up.

[Carl]

I'd just like to say thanks for all the help guys, I'll probably still want some in future, but I’ve just won a short campaign as the Greeks. Got 20 provinces, (including all the starting Scipii ones and Rome).

Was a LOT easier than the Roman ones, and I think I know why.

The thing I noticed when playing the Greeks was that in an infantry vs. infantry fight the Greek units available at a given level totally trounce the Roman ones, (particularly Hoplites and Hoplite Militia), Macedonia and Carthage seem to be the same looking at their unit rosters in the Quick Battle. As a result the Romans early on have to rely on superior general-ship to make use of the more versatile but less powerful troops.

Eventually you do get good troops in the form of , Trairii, Equities, and Roman Archers/Ballista. Unfortunately these take some time to get to, (unlike Hoplites and Militia Hoplites). Looking at the map after my Greek campaign, (finished 255BC), it looks like most factions will be giving you an objectives complete warning around 250BC, (got it in 252BC for Egypt when playing as the Scipii). Your only just getting these units around then and thus getting an army that can take the enemy one on roughly even terms in the way of quality and, (under your command), has much better general-ship. It also gives you the Heavy Infantry with spears so you can skewer Cavalry without having to use your own cavalry in a counter charge mode, (something that often leaves my generals bodyguard and Equities, (once I get them), over extended).

The Marius reforms, (if reports in the guide on the effectiveness of Legion units and Auxilia Units is to be believed), only improve on this. With you getting access to good spear units early on in the tech tree, and some really good legion units early-ish on too. (If I understand the guide right the Axuilia replace Town watch, Early Legions replace Hastati, Late Legions replace Priceps and Praetorians replace Trarii). As a result you have an army of the finest troops in the game that’s available at an early tech level allowing you to take on and beat most armies of similar size just on quality alone.

In effect the Romans are an economic juggernaught that takes till about 240BC to fully get going. However, with the short campaigns being so quick you never get a chance to actually get going. That’s probably why it's so hard.

My only complaint with the Greeks was the difficulty of using the Phalanx formation. If you aren’t lined up at just the right angle and if your not exactly the right width half your guys won't attack, it's also damm hard without mercenaries to keep enemy cavalry off your flanks. Manage that though and it's plain sailing all the way.

Random question, what building trains Spartan Hoplites as I could never spot it in the tech tree?

[Roman_Man#3]

The Marius reforms, (if reports in the guide on the effectiveness of Legion units and Auxilia Units is to be believed), only improve on this. With you getting access to good spear units early on in the tech tree, and some really good legion units early-ish on too. (If I understand the guide right the Axuilia replace Town watch, Early Legions replace Hastati, Late Legions replace Priceps and Praetorians replace Trarii)....

...

Random question, what building trains Spartan Hoplites as I could never spot it in the tech tree?

town watch remain, auxilia replace hastati, early legionary replace princeps, legionary replace triarii, praetorians are buildabe at imperial palace level, and urban cohorts are buildable at the top barracks level.


spartans are recruitable only in Sparta and Syracuse, and at one of the top barracks levels. You said macedon carthage look like they have the same as greek cities. well, they dont. Macedon and seleucid are pretty much the same, using pikes. Mind you egypt should be the same too, because under ptolemy it was one of the diodochi states. Carthage has a completly different units. There is some food for thought.


RM3

ps. Militia hoplites are pretty much the best militia type unit, as compared to town watch for other civilised and warband for barb type factions.

[Carl]

Thanks for the clarification on what replaces what, my point remains however that once they get going (and especially once the Marius reforms come around), the Romans get their best units.

p.s. I know they have somewhat different unit rosters in Carthage/Macedon, I was more talking about the good infantry being Phalanx units, something that most of the Greece area and Carthaginians share in common from what I can see. Phalanx units are damm scary IMHO.

Also thanks for the clarification on the Hoplite militia being so good, my encountering of really powerful chariots in the hands of Egypt and Britannica had me believing that most peoples early units outclassed the Roman equivalents. (If the chariots are late stuff then the Egyptians and Britannic must be teching faster than the rest of the world as they always seem to have a couple of non-general units of them, whilst everyone else seems to use Hastati/Hoplite tech level stuff).

Thanks for all the help again, I think I might try a Long Roman Campaign as the Brutii as I found the Macedonian cities really good in terms of population and development when conquered, and the Statue of Zeus makes it really easy to keep settlements with big culture penalties, the trade benefits from the Colossus are also good IMO.

If that goes okay I’ll start upping the campaign difficulty.

[Roman_Man#3]

Briton and Egypt are 2 of 4 factions that can train chariots IIRC, and their chariot units are unique. They start with the chariots.

[Carl]

Thanks for that info, I figurd they might have lost them prior to my encountering them if they started with them, and they seemed a bit good to be low tech tree stuff. They must have been lucky to keep them.

The brutii goes well in case your wondering, got all but one macedonian territory and all the greek territories in Greece itself. Got Rhodes and the other starting one to grab, plus whatever they've captured. Got 3 cities that can pump out Priceps now, they should be making apperances in my feild armies soon. Allthough I have to admit i'm autoresloving battles a lot these days, mostly because the computer does better against Phalanx units than I do.

Thanks for the info again, it's these littile details that are making life easier. Don't know if i'll wn this campagin yet, but i'm defintly tempted to try a medium one next as another faction, (not sure who, but Macadonia sounds tempting as i'd really like to see what Phalanx's do to Germanic and Gaulish tribesmen).

[jhhowell]

The thing I noticed when playing the Greeks was that in an infantry vs. infantry fight the Greek units available at a given level totally trounce the Roman ones, (particularly Hoplites and Hoplite Militia), Macedonia and Carthage seem to be the same looking at their unit rosters in the Quick Battle. As a result the Romans early on have to rely on superior general-ship to make use of the more versatile but less powerful troops.

That's not really true; even the early Roman infantry is very good. It's different from the phalanx type units, but quite capable of beating them. I think the Romans are actually easier to use than the phalanx infantry, but clearly the latter fits your playing style better.

A couple of the historical battles highlight the Roman vs. Greek infantry matchup. The basic idea is that the Roman infantry (a) weakens the Greeks with the pila volleys, and (b) gets units around the flanks while the phalanxes are occupied beating on other less fortunate Roman units. Hastati et al. can run and charge without difficulty; phalanxes walk slowly, or break formation if they need to run. So a pure infantry vs. infantry matchup ensures that the Romans can flank at will. At that point the question is which side breaks first - the Roman center being chewed on by pikes, or the Greek flanks getting butchered in close combat? All else being equal, I'd expect a Roman win...

As the Brutii, you can have the best of both worlds since you have plenty of places to recruit mercenary hoplites.

Not sure what was happening with your Numidians; I've never had that problem against infantry. Enemy light cav can do it, certainly; you need to be very careful and protect your jav cav from enemy cavalry. To get best use of jav cav, I'd recommend the following. Turn off fire at will (in fact, I can't think of a single unit where the game's default is correct on the fire at will button...), walk your cavalry forward, far out on each flank. The enemy may break off infantry on their own flanks to face you; that makes them nice targets for your archers behind your infantry line. Enemy infantry that keeps their faces towards yours can be javelined in the flanks - this is why you want fire at will off, shoot at flanks and rear, not the front. Doesn't matter so much against unarmored folk like peasants or militia hoplites, but it makes a big difference against units with shields and/or armor (Romans, better hoplites, Eastern infantry, etc.). As long as your own infantry is at least vaguely nearby, the enemy shouldn't be able to try charging on foot after your cavalry. And if they do, not a big deal, the automatic "keep your distance" setting will keep your cavalry safe, and eventually the infantry will be very tired from all that running. Easy meat!