take away transoxiana+volga bulgaria and add burgundy+genoa

[Bakma]

Forget this civilized, non-civilized/barbarian thing that I foolishly brought up, some of the logic behind including these two factions probably are for flavor and to populate the eastern portion of the map thus making expansion more difficult.
Also if lacking an impressive military power is enough reason for excluding the Volga-Bulgars (whom I must admit I know very little about) then there are some factions in Europe who could be discluded on that basis. I don't think Norway had an impressive army in the middle-ages I think, I've never really seen them mentioned by others, and if someone comes talking about Vikings as a basis for a good army then that is rubbish as the vikings were just pirates. Some fit other patterns: Sicily was conquered in the 13th century, the Cuman nation was destroyed by the Mongols, and so on and so on.

Let's just see how it turns out, who knows maybe the team will change it's mind?

well it has nothing to say that you never heard something about the volga bulgars or transoxania. Or that you weren't teached in school about them. Here in germany for example they don't talk something about turkic history in schools that doesn't make them "unimportant".

[Randarkmaan]

well it has nothing to say that you never heard something about the volga bulgars or transoxania. Or that you weren't teached in school about them. Here in germany for example they don't talk something about turkic history in schools that doesn't make them "unimportant".

I haven't said anything against the inclusion of these two factions actually. I'm pretty excited actually to see how they turn out, decidedly more so for Transoxania than for the Volga-Bulgars though.

[mayhem87]

Burgundy and Genoa were far more famous in the world than some Transoxiana and Volga Bulgaria. they had more influence and better army. And thats what Im talkin about.

[Orda Khan]

How do we define importance? Let me see....That's right, anything that is recorded in western European history.
Come, come gentlemen, surely we should realise a World existed beyond European boundaries.
Similarly, for every call for Burgundy or Genoa there could just as easily be a call for Wales and Ireland and others too.

Transoxiana (currently a generic term)
The Qara-Khanid (oddly enough another misnomer that has been accepted) state was established by an offshoot of the Qarluk Turks and Uighurs who migrated there. They adopted Islam in the 10th Century and though considered vassals of the Seljuks, they were free to administer without interferance, the Seljuks were looking in another direction. Their Capital was Bukhara and they enjoyed the wealth brought via the 'silk road'.
They did later on become vassals of the Qara-Khitai (western Liao - Khitan refugees) who set up their own state but generally resided to the north east. Note that Khwarazm was also a vassal of Qara-Khitai (it had by this time shaken off the grip of the Seljuks though maintained an army which was mostly Turkic). Shah Muhammad took advantage of internal strife amongst Qara-Khitai to establish his own 'Empire' and with the fall of Qara-Khitai to Jebe and his Turfan Uighur allies, Muhammad was able to gain the land of 'Transoxiana' between the Oxus and Jaxartes (Amu Darya and Syr Daria) and establish his new Capital at Samarqand.

Volga Bulgars.
Retreated north under pressure from the Khazars and established themselves around the Bulgar/Kama area. Some remained under Khazar rule and others migrated west to found Bulgaria. They began as a mixed people Altaic, Turkic, Finn, Ugrian and Slav and formed a strong link with Baghdad. Their Capital, Bulgar was THE trade centre of the time, making major European cities look insignificant by comparison.
In 1223, after the annihilation of Russian and Qipchaq troops at Kalka and after rendezvousing with Jochi and reinforcements, Jebe and Subedei were forced to withdraw by a Volga Bulgar army. Later in 1236, an army of 30,000 Mongols under Batu's brother Suntai were driven back. They were defeated by Batu and the invasion force that went on into Russia and Hungary and were finally subjugated six years later.
Anything but another 'horse archer' faction (and there are plenty of HA in eastern European armies in vanilla M2TW), their armies were influenced by Russia and Byzantium as well as the Turks.

Now please accept the faction list has been decided and realise that threads like this will have no influence over it

.......Orda

[mayhem87]

This is a game of medieval times mainly in Europe, who cares about some far eastern factions.... I like Russia, Turks, Egyptians, Bizantines.... they r specific and interesting. But some Volga Bulgars or transoxiana? ---> OK, lets make it straight to China.... ( i think, that Europe was most interesting part in medieval history, not some sub-mongolish type territories, that were captured by first stronger rival that arrived there......its only because of filling in free space on the map..nothing else.....they have no meaning in history.

[Randarkmaan]

Burgundy and Genoa were far more famous in the world than some Transoxiana and Volga Bulgaria. they had more influence and better army. And thats what Im talkin about.

How do you know that they had better armies than them yet thev never fought against each other, nor was there are an enemy both of them fought?

[mayhem87]

burgundy had their part in hundred years war. They were main rivals of France
(and they were supported by HRE). Burgundy was strong economicaly and culturaly. They meant something......and they have the best wine ;-D

genoa fought against venice (nearly conquered them) and turks.. their generals also lead a defence in constantinople against turks....
have you some facts about those nomads from the far east?

[Ilkhanate]

How do we define importance? Let me see....That's right, anything that is recorded in western European history.
Come, come gentlemen, surely we should realise a World existed beyond European boundaries.
Similarly, for every call for Burgundy or Genoa there could just as easily be a call for Wales and Ireland and others too.

Transoxiana (currently a generic term)
The Qara-Khanid (oddly enough another misnomer that has been accepted) state was established by an offshoot of the Qarluk Turks and Uighurs who migrated there. They adopted Islam in the 10th Century and though considered vassals of the Seljuks, they were free to administer without interferance, the Seljuks were looking in another direction. Their Capital was Bukhara and they enjoyed the wealth brought via the 'silk road'.
They did later on become vassals of the Qara-Khitai (western Liao - Khitan refugees) who set up their own state but generally resided to the north east. Note that Khwarazm was also a vassal of Qara-Khitai (it had by this time shaken off the grip of the Seljuks though maintained an army which was mostly Turkic). Shah Muhammad took advantage of internal strife amongst Qara-Khitai to establish his own 'Empire' and with the fall of Qara-Khitai to Jebe and his Turfan Uighur allies, Muhammad was able to gain the land of 'Transoxiana' between the Oxus and Jaxartes (Amu Darya and Syr Daria) and establish his new Capital at Samarqand.

Volga Bulgars.
Retreated north under pressure from the Khazars and established themselves around the Bulgar/Kama area. Some remained under Khazar rule and others migrated west to found Bulgaria. They began as a mixed people Altaic, Turkic, Finn, Ugrian and Slav and formed a strong link with Baghdad. Their Capital, Bulgar was THE trade centre of the time, making major European cities look insignificant by comparison.
In 1223, after the annihilation of Russian and Qipchaq troops at Kalka and after rendezvousing with Jochi and reinforcements, Jebe and Subedei were forced to withdraw by a Volga Bulgar army. Later in 1236, an army of 30,000 Mongols under Batu's brother Suntai were driven back. They were defeated by Batu and the invasion force that went on into Russia and Hungary and were finally subjugated six years later.
Anything but another 'horse archer' faction (and there are plenty of HA in eastern European armies in vanilla M2TW), their armies were influenced by Russia and Byzantium as well as the Turks.

Now please accept the faction list has been decided and realise that threads like this will have no influence over it

.......Orda


the ilkhanate must also be in it in this mod because they were very big and good.

( Hülegü Khan, Abaka Khan, Arghun Khan, Ghazan Mahmud Khan and Muhammed Olcay-to Khan and his son Great and Last Khan: Ebü Sa'id Bahadir Khan )

[Ilkhanate]

the ilkhanate must also be in it in this mod because they were very big and good.

( Hülegü Khan, Abaka Khan, Arghun Khan, Ghazan Mahmud Khan and Muhammed Olcay-to Khan and his son Great and Last Khan: Ebü Sa'id Bahadir Khan )