Peaceful British isles

[CountMRVHS]

I'm playing M2TW unpatched; just got it over Christmas and wanted to try it out before I tinkered with it.

I played a M/M Spain game quickly to unlock the factions and then eventually settled on a M/VH England game. I wanted to play it slow and let the AI build up so I could have some nice defensive battles and some real challenges on the campaign map. I particularly looked forward to fighting off the Scots and French.

Sadly, that corner of the world seems to be incredibly comatose. I finally accepted trade rights with the French, but consistently refused it from the Scots, who never seemed to get upset despite the ridiculous demands I made on their diplomat. They'd ask for trade rights all nice and sweet and I'd demand tons of money per turn, map info, accept or we will attack. Their response: "Oh, alright then. Maybe next time."

I watched dumbfounded as the French idiotically sent tiny forces to take nearby rebel settlements -- and lost every time.

The Scots didn't make a *single* move with their military units beyond their borders. Inverness and York remained rebel until I finally took York about 20 turns in.

Meanwhile, just to rub salt in the wound, I was getting intriguing news about wars in Germany, excommunications, betrayals. Finally the HRE was destroyed, leaving the Danes, Poles and Venetians to pick at the spoils. But over in northwestern Europe it was naptime.

Around 30 turns in I called it quits and started up a VH/VH Scots campaign. My goal was the same -- let the AI build up, hold off from conquering provinces, and hope for some aggressive behavior from my neighbors.

Nothing.

Same scenario as above: the English AI would send a pitiful force to attack York; the rebels would counterattack and drive them away. That happened a couple times in the first 15 or 20 turns and then the English just gave up. From then on the only action I saw around Nottingham was their princess constantly getting on and off the same boat every single turn. They had sent a half-stack of forces into Wales and I thought "finally! they'll *do* something!" But no. After sitting in the mountains for around 10 turns the English half-stack turned rebel and hopped into Caernarvon.

France did a little better this time, although it still took forever for them to take Rennes and Bordeaux. Eventually I took Inverness (waiting until the last minute to accomplish my mission), and then I had some fun when a Crusade was called to Jerusalem. I sent an army by ship down to France, marched through Germany to the Adriatic sea, hired some boats, and sailed to Jerusalem, taking the city before anyone else got there. My king got awesome piety and cool traits - "Edward the Crusader". Finally, I thought; if nothing's going to happen in Britain there will surely be some action HERE -- I'm surrounded and outnumbered by a hostile population in unfamiliar lands. I anticipated some great defensive showdowns against a horde of Egyptian warriors.

Not exactly.

After I took Jerusalem, the Egyptians sent a diplomat begging for a ceasefire. I was amazed to see that it was considered "Generous" for me to ask for Acre in return for a simple ceasefire! The Egyptians moved their full stack out of Acre while I moved in, and then proceeded to sit outside the town, not doing anything.

What am I doing wrong? Why are the AI factions such wimps? Why won't they send decent forces to attack rebel armies? Why won't they attack ME, even on VH? Is it because I play defensively, and the AI follows your lead? Is it because I haven't installed the patch? Is it just a quirk of playing England or Scotland?

I haven't even really played around with the battles that much because the map has been so godawfully peaceful.

I'd really like to hear if anyone else is experiencing very quiet, BORING campaign maps, what difficulty, and what faction. I'd also like to hear -- actually I'd PREFER to hear -- from those of you who are having great, interesting, challenging campaigns, and how you think you ended up with them.

Anyway, thanks for any replies. I wish my first post about this game didn't have to be so negative in tone, but I really want to *react* to the AIs moves rather than watching the AI ineptly attempt to react to mine. I figured VH difficulty would get me there, but it doesn't seem to be the case. Hopefully some of you will be able to prove me wrong...

CountMRVHS

[Wizzie]

That sounds highly irregular to me. In all of my campaigns I'm constantly forced to expand to eliminate the war-happy AI. In fact, I think the AI is actually hardcoded to declare war on the player if he's at peace for ten turns or something (on VH campaign mode). Start another campaign and see if it happens again, it could just be an anomoly.

P.S. Download the patch, it makes the AI use naval invasions so the British Isles won't be quite so boring

[fabiano]

Hi,

It is because you are playing in M/M. Do not complain it is good. The AI show some signs of inteligence: Do not refuse cease-fire if only 1 city and 1000 enemys at his gate; attack with 1000 peasants...

In H/H or VH/VH the AI just attack you, and attack, and attack, without units or a chance to win. Just attack. This is boring!

Fabiano

[Sir Moody]

actually ive watched the ai get really aggressive even on medium - basically you arnt aggressive enough.

The AI seems to have a "needs" list when it comes to rebel cities at the begining - if you take one of these cities they god help you then will go mad - as the scots rushing to york will produce this with the Enlgish most the time - with the English taking the rebel cities either side of Caen will usually provoke a responce from France - and as the danes if you take hamburg before the germans they will hound you - if you dont they ingore you until you attack them...

never understood why they act like this but they do...

[gingergenius]

It is a peaceful place.I'm playing a passive-agressive campaign as the English, ie. I sit around doing nothing until I get attacked and then all hell breaks loose on that faction. I got the rebel settlements at York, Caernarfon, Rennes, Bruges and Antwerp. Then I had nowhere to go so sat around stealing generals with princesses. I decided to leave Inverness and Dublin to the Scots, yet it must have taken them 100 turns if not more for them to conquer even Inverness. They keep having on-off wars with the Danes that result in nothing at all.

However, elsewhere, the French have besieged me resulting in some heavy military defeats for them before a ceasefire and Angers came my way. Same with the Germans, from who I got Metz, Hamburg from the Danes and Rheims from the Milanese, all through diplomacy. I went to war again with the French over a failed assasination, and destroyed them by taking Bordeaux. Then the Portuguese decided to attack, so I conquered them in Zaragoza and marched through Spanish lands and took Cordoba - they were not willing to hand anything over via diplomacy so we are still at war. Then the Hungarians attacked me, offered a ceasefire (without fighting a battle) and gave me Bern.

The only lands that seem to be under contention are Iberia, Central Europe and Turkey. Everywhere else is usually peaceful - just looks like everyone guns for the HRE, and the French are always lookingto expand their borders.

[Scotsmanforlife]

Howdy!
Here's how my campain is going at the moment. As the HRE i've managed to eliminate Sicily and Milan, while the English killed of the french. I've managed to expand my empire throughout the middle section of the campain map and down into Africa. I control all of italy as well, except for Rome of course. I'm on year 1215 i believe too. For almost every turn i've had to fight somebody off, mostly the Venitians or the Milanese. Everyone is more than happy to declare war on me, often more than one faction per turn is trying to kick my butt. And i haven't even installed the patch yet.
I've tried to keep my killing sprees on the low side just to make it more interesting. And i probably didn't even have to do it. I'm having a blast playing as the HRE, as i'm assailed on all sides. So the AI in my game is definetly not passive. And that's my

[CountMRVHS]

Awesome. Thanks for the replies everyone. It looks like I need to be a bit more aggressive then, and/or try a different faction.

Keep the stories coming though!

[wiretripped]

Can't say I can complain, playing as the HRE.
At one moment I was at war with England, Denmark, Poland, Hungary, Milan, Sicily and Venice, at once. And actively at that; meaning they'd siege my cities with regularity.

Seemed like the three Italian ones were taking turns in assailing Bologna; fight off one faction's army and there's another one's at your doorstep. The Danes were permanently sieging Hamburg. Poland and Hungary took turns in sieging Vienna. And England sat at Bruges once in a while. Kept me on my toes, and my treasure at the bottom...

[Marquis of Roland]

If AI factions moving too slowly to take over towns for you, just take it over yourself and give it to them as a gift

[sapi]

If AI factions moving too slowly to take over towns for you, just take it over yourself and give it to them as a gift

:P

I was actually entertaining notions (at one time) of giving all of eastern europe and asia minor to another faction in my hre campaign just to give me a challenge (i've got spain, france, the british isles, scandinavia, western russia, northern and southern greece (except Thessalonia) and italy before turn 50)

[Basilakes En Strategoisin]

I experienced something like this when I first played MTWII. As Byzantines, M/VH, I moved quickly to take at least Smyrna and Dyrrhachium before the AI decided to gang up on me... And I waited. And waited. Finally I quit the game in frustration, having used toggle_fow and realised the AI wasn't doing anything at all, anywhere. I switched to Hard and it got better at once. Even so, I found I could get a ceasefire from the Venetians (despite sharing a border in Dalmatia/Epirus) because they were up to their necks in a huge war with Milan over Northern Italy.

After that, I eventually settled on a H/VH campaign with the Danes, and have found it supremely entertaining. Sure, the AI does get aggressive, but not unrealistically so IMHO. My biggest rival, Milan, never agreed to a ceasefire, but why should they? During the 13th to 14th centuries they were the biggest faction in the game, and defeated me a couple of times. On the other hand, England kept backing off from invading Norway, presumably because the Pope was my best friend and busy threatening them. Eventually they did attack, however, took Oslo and got excommunicated. At the same time, my alliance with the Spanish, the second biggest faction and Milan's enemy #1 proved lasting. Sharing a border does put a lot of strain on your relations, but it's not that unrealistic. Even in Hard, in my experience, diplomacy works well enough.

Just let the AI tech up and build its empires. Eventually, war will come. If you find the wait boring - go join a crusade! That's what I did, I basically neglected Denmark's expansion while pouring my money into ultimately futile attempts to gain a foothold on the Holy Lands. It's surprisingly difficult. And by the time my big crusades were over, I woke to the realization that a great big HRE was on my doorstep, threatening war...

:P

I was actually entertaining notions (at one time) of giving all of eastern europe and asia minor to another faction in my hre campaign just to give me a challenge (i've got spain, france, the british isles, scandinavia, western russia, northern and southern greece (except Thessalonia) and italy before turn 50)

Actually, there's an even easier (though time-consuming) way to make your game *really* challenging. Try letting the Mongols build up an empire. In my Danish campaign, when the buggers originally showed up in the steppes, I was intrigued and sent a spy to take a look at them. Sure, they looked (and sounded!) scary, but they weren't doing much anything, just wandering around, sacking maybe one russian castle along the way but otherwise nothing. I sighed and thought to myself, well it's just like the last MTW, they aren't doing anything. Stupid mongols, says I and go on with my crusades, and after that begin conquering Germany from the HRE.

Sometime in the late 13th century, I think, I suddenly get the notification that something funny has happened. The mongols have taken Kiev and settled down. Amusing, says I, maybe they'll keep the Russians occupied for a little while and I can "take over" the Baltic when they're not looking my way.

A little while later, while I'm happily building my empire over the last scraps of the old HRE and fighting off my new rival, Milan, the great western powerhouse, I start feeling a little uneasy about my eastern front. The Poles have always been at peace with me, probably because they never felt powerful and confident enough to attack me. Now, however, the Poles are getting squished. the Mongols have taken over the steppes, driven the Russians to Helsinki and Novgorod, and are conquering Poland. Oh well, I think, they can't be that bad. Maybe I'll have to put a little effort into fighting them after all. My new gunpowder weapons are gonna send them back to the steppes crying for mama...

By the mid 15th century, the Danish Empire, once the world's biggest and most developed state, has practically ceased to exist. Sometime around 1450 Arhus, the world's biggest, richest, and best defended city ever fell to the Mongols. Milan has taken advantage of the collapse of Danish rule and taken back Northern France. The last Danish possessions left in the old world are Oslo, defended by a handful of viking peasants, and Cyprus, the last remnant of the crusader states of the 13th century. The lords of Denmark have fled over the sea and established a new state of Vinland in the new world, where they are trying to hold their conquests against a tide of angry Aztecs.

What went wrong? Basically, my playing style is very relaxed and I care more about a good story (I play the game as if it were a history book I was reading) than ultimate victory. My economy was never that great, and I made the mistake of submitting to Mongol vassalship after my initial defeats against them and thought I could happily keep on fighting the Milanese and HRE and still win the game with HRE destroyed and 20 provinces (short campaign, yes!). Turns out, when they have vassalised Russia, destroyed Poland and reduced the HRE to a 1-city empire they have no further need of my friendship.

Still, there's no doubt that while the steppe hordes may be fearsome, a well-established, stable Mongol state is something out of Hell itself. They keep pumping out full stacks of silver chevron heavy cav, horse archers and siege things, and even their basic Mongol infantry fight like daemons. I defeated them in an open battle just once, and that was my most experienced full stack Milanese-crushing army fresh from the conquest of France against a pitiful half a stack of mongols led by a stupid captain. The result? Over half of my men died. Even in cities, the super effective svaerdstaav-crossbow-spearman militia combination that kicked Milanese heavy infantry ass every time gets overrun by the mass of mongol cavalry once the gate is down. They lost about 70% of their men conquering Arhus, but they don't need to care about casualties.

All in all, after the initial shock (I was so close! Noooo!) I think this has been the most entertaining TW campaign I've ever played. I'm still not defeated, 30 turns left and I still want to see if my colony in the new world is doomed to fail or if I can prevail against the Aztecs with so few men and resources. Thumbs up to CA for the new badass Mongols!

No doubt the Mongols can be defeated by a more experienced player with a taste for optimizing and maximizing, but nevertheless my point is that if you want a challenge… Don’t go to the Mongols. Let the Mongols come to you!

[Durallan]

if you can keep playing after your turns run out, do so and tell us what happens when the Timurids arrive, I'd love to know what the Mongols and Timurids do to each other.

[Basilakes En Strategoisin]

if you can keep playing after your turns run out, do so and tell us what happens when the Timurids arrive, I'd love to know what the Mongols and Timurids do to each other.

The Timurids have already arrived and are on the rampage. However, it doesn't look like they're about to collide with the Mongols anytime soon. They are based in Syria and are currently fighting the Byzantines, they just captured Nicaea. Good idea though, when the game ends I'll see if I can toggle_fow and keep "playing" to see if they eventually conquer everything...

[Von Nanega]

My Denmark campaign has been one brutal war after another. Milan, Venice, HRE have all decided to send Denmark back to Valhalla. I have not had one moment to breathe and regroup. So, it must be the particular campaign you are playing.

[CountMRVHS]

Good stuff! I think you & I have similar playing styles, Basilakes. I've had better luck with my H/H Byzantine campaign since posting last. The Venetians started a war they couldn't finish, but once I got up to Zagreb they kept throwing armies at it. After about 10 turns I managed to shake them off and send my Emperor into Venice itself, and turn my attention to Vienna, which is their (I think) final settlement.

However, just around that time I decided to drop my alliance with the Turks, which I'd had since the beginning of the game. I allied with the Turks and Egyptians under the impression that, like RTW or MTW, alliances would be betrayed sooner rather than later. I was *hoping* they'd betray me, as I was really looking forward to a Byz/Turk clash, but I did want to buy a few turns of peace so I could focus on building up. Well, a few turns of peace turned into 50 turns.... finally I figured I had to take the war to them, so I dropped the alliance.

Just at that time, of course, my ally Hungary backstabbed me by besieging Thessalonica with a half stack of dismounted feudal knights. So I've had a very active western front and a very quiet eastern front. I'm starting to get rumors of the Mongols, though... it's around turn 65 so hopefully soon they'll start mixing things up.

Still, I've been basically the aggressor here. I want to stick with it, though, because it seems that things get more interesting further into the game. This seems to be in contrast to RTW, when much of the action happened in the first 20 turns, by which time your position was basically assured.

[Basilakes En Strategoisin]

However, just around that time I decided to drop my alliance with the Turks, which I'd had since the beginning of the game. I allied with the Turks and Egyptians under the impression that, like RTW or MTW, alliances would be betrayed sooner rather than later. I was *hoping* they'd betray me, as I was really looking forward to a Byz/Turk clash, but I did want to buy a few turns of peace so I could focus on building up. Well, a few turns of peace turned into 50 turns.... finally I figured I had to take the war to them, so I dropped the alliance.

Yeah, sounds familiar. When I tried the Byzantines, the Hungarians were very troublesome, but apart from 1 weak Jihad army, all the Turks seemed to want from me was peace I'll give them another go later, maybe if I just sit there and let the Turks take Smyrna, they'll become more aggressive. If not, eventually someone more aggressive will probably clobber them and take their place

That's one reason why this game is so much better than Rome, because of events that can change things radically and turn the status quo upside down - the Mongol invasions, the occasional Jihad or Crusade, excommunications...