Are we becoming as bad as those we oppose?

[Goofball]

In one of the previous "Saddam is dead threads" a tangent topic emerged, and I have quoted it below:

This is absolutely sickening that they will be murdering Saddam.

He was not given a trial. He was merely given a farce masquerading as a trial in order to pretend that murdering him via hanging will not be murder.

No he wasn't. You know why? He wasn't giving a "fair trial" to the 100 or so Shiites he killed and gassed. Why do you even give these people trials? We know he's guilty, hang the guy. I think the execution method is highly innapropriate. Let's kill him by the way he's lived: by gas or gun.

I responded with:

Honestly, are you kidding me? "Why do we even give these people trials?"

Are you seriously suggesting that death penalties (or any penalties, for that matter) should be able to be handed out without trial?

Give your head a shake...

and was met with:

Do you think there's even the remotest possibility that Saddam was innocent? That it was all just a big misunderstanding?

and:

You're right. He never did anything. He never killed those Shiites or Kurds. He never invaded Kuwait. His regime never fell. Those were all propaganda lies. Really the whole witch thing made no sense. You don't recognize a crazy totalarian who kills by his looks, but by his actions.


YOU should be giving your head a shake.

Unfortunately, the thread was closed before any further discussion could take place. My point was not that I thought Saddam was innocent, but that passing any sentence over anybody should only be done after a fair trial, no matter how strongly we believe in that person's guilt.

So now I ask:

Do people really believe that we should be able to dispense "justice" without due process of law if we feel the evidence against the individual is overwhelming and undoubted?

[rory_20_uk]

Do I think that it should be the case, or to discuss whether it is currently bieng undertaken?

[Strike For The South]

Goof, we all new what the end result was going to be. Everyone in the courtroom knew he was guilty. There was plenty of evidence to support the verdict. Could the trial have been run better? Yes but if you think he wasnt given a fair trial you live in lala land. Everyone deserves to be tried with a jury even Saddam. I would also point out it was Iraqi courts and not American ones that tried him so we couldnt do much.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Do people really believe that we should be able to dispense "justice" without due process of law if we feel the evidence against the individual is overwhelming and undoubted?

No, certainly not. Not but in the most extreme of circumstances.

So much for the obvious. More importantly, was this trial a farce masquerading as a trial as you suggest? We should not make the mistake of deeming a trial whose outcome is certain not a fair trial for that reason alone.

Politically, there was a lot of hypocracy surrounding this trial. And juridically, it was imprudently rash, unprofessional, from the first hearings all the way to the execution.

It was poor show, but not the worst I've seen. It left a bad taste in my mouth, but that's all to be honest. It doesn't conflict with my sense of justice.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Everyone deserves to be tried with a jury even Saddam.

Wait, this reminds me of something...

*googles*

Ah, the blessings of a keen memory:

I would also point out it was Iraqi courts and not American ones that tried him so we couldnt do much.

Mwah, that's debatable. I think the judges couldn't even tie their shoelaces without American permission.

[KafirChobee]

From what I witnessed yesterday on The News Hour (PBS), the execution seemed to have been carried out like some old West lynching. Saddam my not have deserved any form of dignity for his crimes, but what I witnessed was a travesty - a reinforcement for the continuation of sectarian violence. Saddam seemed to have more compossure than those witnessing his demise. What a buncha thugs, and chanting "Moqtada al-Sadr"? What was that all about? How in the world did we allow the Iraqi government to botch even the most simple task of hanging a tyrant.

I almost felt pity for Saddam. Maybe just a tinge.

But, are we becoming as bad? At times we are, but the pendalum has historically swung back to a more liberating and liberal form of conduct by those that govern. Americans tend to go along with the hype of those that wish to control our democracy, but sooner than later they wake up to the fact of what the hype was (is) really about. We witnessed that in our recent elections. Those that would subvert our laws and judicial system find themselves facing them with a wrath they never suspected, and thought they could control. e.g. McCarthy, Nixon, .......

[Strike For The South]

Wait, this reminds me of something...

*googles*

Ah, the blessings of a keen memory:








Mwah, that's debatable. I think the judges couldn't even tie their shoelaces without American permission.

You make my point you old francophile. Despite everyone knoewing he was guilty and the mountian of evidence he still deserves a trial by his peers.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Generally I would say no, but here's a counter question. Nurremburg resulted in Speer walking away with his life while a Nazi radio broadcaster, who's name I forget, was executed. Is that Justice.

I think there's always a danger of justice being confused with due process, the two are never mutually inclusive.

[Ser Clegane]

Everyone in the courtroom knew he was guilty. There was plenty of evidence to support the verdict. Could the trial have been run better?

If things are so straight forward then there is no excuse for the lack of a professional trial.

I would also point out it was Iraqi courts and not American ones that tried him so we couldnt do much.

So much is clear - however, some of the comments imply that some poeple wouldn't have cared about a proper trial anyway.

[Kralizec]

Generally I would say no, but here's a counter question. Nurremburg resulted in Speer walking away with his life while a Nazi radio broadcaster, who's name I forget, was executed. Is that Justice.

I think there's always a danger of justice being confused with due process, the two are never mutually inclusive.

Wasn't the radio guy acquited? And Speer was imprisoned, a death penalty would have been disproportionate because IIRC he wasn't shown to have had any hand in any real atrocities.

[Dutch_guy]

Wasn't the radio guy acquited? And Speer was imprisoned, a death penalty would have been disproportionate because IIRC he wasn't shown to have had any hand in any real atrocities.

If I recall correctly they did hang Blokzeil (wasn't he Jewish?) if that's the radio guy you all mean, and they would have needless to say hanged Goebbels - but well, we all know how he died. And yes, Speer and his lawyer played it well, in my opinion (and after reading two of his books) I'd say he was simply to high up not to have known - but indeed, they didn't manage to prove that.

Anyway, sorry for the thread hijack.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

If I recall correctly they did hang Blokzeil (wasn't he Jewish?) if that's the radio guy you all mean, and they would have needless to say hanged Goebbels - but well, we all know how he died. And yes, Speer and his lawyer played it well, in my opinion (and after reading two of his books) I'd say he was simply to high up not to have known - but indeed, they didn't manage to prove that.

Anyway, sorry for the thread hijack.

Yes, that's the guy. They needed someone to try on the propoganda side, all the top ones were dead so they picked out some poor sod doing his job. If you analyse those trials you'd probably find just as much wrong with them.

Saddam was guilty and he was executed, he died well under the circumstances. I'm sorry but that leaves very little bad taste in my mouth really. Although I am beggining to think that removing him was actually wrong for the Iraqi people. They're certainly worse off and the whole situation reminds me of a Greek proverb, which paraphrased is, "Freedom can only be won, not granted."

History has shown that the only democracies that survive are those formed internally.

[PanzerJaeger]

Its kind of funny that the Iraqi justice system seems to work better than the that of the Hague.

[Geoffrey S]

Its kind of funny that the Iraqi justice system seems to work better than the that of the Hague.

Some 'justice' the Iraqi process brought...

Particularly the latest footage of the execution gives the impression of yet another aspect of sectarian retribution in Iraq, with this time the Shia side on top.

[PanzerJaeger]

Unlike Milosevich(sp), a leader with a well documented record of ethnic cleansing was brought to trial and hanged.

Not perfect, but far better than the "civilized" soapbox that Milosevich's trial became.

And some wonder why America will never have her troops tried in that court.

[Kralizec]

My point was not that I thought Saddam was innocent, but that passing any sentence over anybody should only be done after a fair trial, no matter how strongly we believe in that person's guilt.

Agreed.

I think the execution method is highly innapropriate. Let's kill him by the way he's lived: by gas or gun.

Anecdote: in one of his raves Saddam demanded that if he would be given the death penalty, he'd be killed by a firing squad. He wanted to go like a military man and not like a common criminal.

Unlike Milosevich(sp), a leader with a well documented record of ethnic cleansing was brought to trial and hanged.

Not perfect, but far better than the "civilized" soapbox that Milosevich's trial became.

And some wonder why America will never have her troops tried in that court.

The ICC, based on the Rome statute, is distinct from the Yugoslavia tribunal.

[Pannonian]

Unlike Milosevich(sp), a leader with a well documented record of ethnic cleansing was brought to trial and hanged.

Not perfect, but far better than the "civilized" soapbox that Milosevich's trial became.

And some wonder why America will never have her troops tried in that court.

PanzerJager: "Granddad, what did YOU do in the war?"

[PanzerJaeger]

Grandfather died fighting the bolshevik menace....

[Xiahou]

Are we becoming as bad as those we oppose?

No.

More importantly, was this trial a farce masquerading as a trial as you suggest? We should not make the mistake of deeming a trial whose outcome is certain not a fair trial for that reason alone.

There's a good point. Could the trial have gone better? Of course- but it's worth noting that a large portion of the unprofessionalism came from the defense team that seemed more interested in obstructing the trial than seeing it run properly.

Of course, the outcome was a forgone conclusion since, to quote an Iraqi ""It's as easy to find mass graves in Iraq as it once was to find oil". The trial was a formality and under the circumstances, a fairly well run one. The executioners certainly could've behaved more professionally, but since it's a safe bet that many of them knew people who were murdered/raped/maimed/tortured/disfigured by Saddam it's at least understandable (though still unfortunate) that they lost their composure. Imagine having the husband of a woman who was raped and murdered as the executioner of her killer.