2 More questions

[HumphreysCraig00]

Thankyou for the answers.

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1) I have never had a cavalry charge break through anything more than a 2 rank deep infantry formation, (unless the formation was fleeing from me in which case my cav floats through it as if it isnt there)

Thats why I havent seen any effect from it.

So how do I go about making my cavalry able to break through normal Ai formations of about 4-8 ranks?

Is it about timing my charges or about waiting for them to start advancing and then charging?

I have tried with a fresh cavalry formation by the way so its not to do with freshness i dont think.


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2) Oh I saw that one but forgot about it, I wonder why. Stupid me...

sorry

[HumphreysCraig00]

As an addition to 1)


I have been doing a few experiments (Macedonian Companian Cavalry vs Gaul Warband) No upgrades, gaul warband is generals unit, I have an armored general I kept away from warband)

And what happened the 4 times I charged in wedge would dimple the centre of the 4 deep gaul formation and then rout almost instantly.

Here are the casualty numbers after each rout

Forgot to mark the 1st one down but it was


60-69 CC routing with 200-209 Gauls left alive

2nd and subsequent I did mark down

CC Routing *** Gaul warband still alive

2) 57 *** 227

3) 45 *** 212

4) 62 *** 228

And with my cavalry in a block 3/4 as wide as thiers

1) 73 *** 158

2) 41(not routing) *** Routed but broke at around 130 or so

With my cav in a 4 deep line

1 61 *** 182


I just felt like posting these as they show the terrible results I get from wedge. What am I diong wrong?

2nd wedge try I tried telling my cavalry to run to a point behind the infantry hoping to slice them in half then but I got about the same result

[HumphreysCraig00]

Sorry for the 3 in one, as I said in a previous post i am used to alot of tacking on to post with editing features.

Anyway this isnt evident of the usual results I get with wedge, (usually wedge is just a bit worse than a 4 deep line which is my standard formation)

I think the wedge may have done badly because the dimpling effect caused the formation to be attacked on 2 sides and gaul warband, while being cr*p has spears which im fairly sure give them a small anti cavalry bonus.

But gaul warband is the usual sort of enemy I face (I either attack them 1st as julii or attack them after taking greece and macedon as brutii)

[jhhowell]

Your numbers look reasonable to me. You don't want to charge a spear unit like a warband from the front with cavalry in an actual campaign battle, of course.

I've never found wedge to be useful. If a target unit is weak enough to be charged from the front, a normal formation will also work and cause more casualties on the first impact. If one is charging a flank or rear, what's the point of a wedge to begin with? So I've never used the formation in my games... The AI uses it sometimes and has been spectacularly unsuccessful. Maybe there's something clever one can pull off with a wedge, but cavalry is fully capable of dominating the RTW battlefield without ever using it.

[HumphreysCraig00]

**"Your numbers look reasonable to me. You don't want to charge a spear unit like a warband from the front with cavalry in an actual campaign battle, of course"**

I know, its just thats what I most often face so thought it would be a good test.

I always try to sandwhich units as that causes semi instant routs in anything I have fought thusfar using equites, even Spartans, so it works okay for me :)

I have heard (well read) things about using a wedge to hit the side of a formation and "unzip" it but with every attempt at that ive had (a few) my wedge just hits it and then collapses into the infantry. Plus both units will be moving so I could never hit square on.

[Severous]

Hi HumphreysCraig00

Like the research you are doing. Are you up for trying something else?

Spear armed troops reflect a cavalry charge back onto the cavalry. In RTW patched to V1.5 this happens from a charge from any side....even the rear.

If a wedge is adding a charge bonus then you are getting additional damage reflected back onto you making it even more counter productive.

How about trying a wedge formation against swordsmen ? No charge reflection bonus. Or against cavalry if you can get it to stand still.

And then how about trying a wedge where you dont attack the enemy line but a point beyond it. This is how I attack with cavalry against spear and other heavy infantry. Only once in contact do I 'attack' . I seem to loose too many men in 'charges'. Better just to run into them.

The AI always uses wedges to attack my cavalry. Very useful signal to tell me whats about to happen. Get ready to set up a trap to counter charge/surround them.

[HumphreysCraig00]

Hi HumphreysCraig00

Like the research you are doing. Are you up for trying something else?

Spear armed troops reflect a cavalry charge ... making it even more counter productive.
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I wondered why charging them from behind caused alot of instant deaths, But they get it back usually once they get stuck in

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How ... get it to stand still.
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I havent tried it against swordsmen, I have cavalry though (more to see whos stronger rather than anything more specific)

The germanic noble cavalry would never charge me, it either stood there or tried to slowly flank to the left.

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And then how about trying a wedge ... just to run into them.
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I tried that on the 2nd wedge and it didnt seem to make much difference so abandoned it

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The AI always uses wedges ... counter charge/surround them.
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The Ai's light cavalry is constantly in wedge for me while its heavy stays in a line.

Although I havent faced much heavy cav yet and I get it before anything else so they may not have had a chance to wedge up.




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[x-dANGEr]

I didn't read through all that's above. But here's what I know from my experience on Wedge formation.

Let's say you're against 2 rank phalanx wall. You can't charge from front. Their back is cover. You can charge from the side, but with the normal formation, it will do more bad than good. What to do? Yeah, Wedge and charge. It will break the Phalanx wall, allowing your charging infantry to hack through it easily.

As a general rule of using Wedge. The more Cavalry you're putting in the charge the more "powerful" it will be. If you Wedge charge with 5 Praetorian Cavalry units a wall of infantry, you will kill a lot of men on contact, and even go through that wall into the other side, reform and charge again the same way. Without Wedge, you will get a LOT of your cavalry slaughtered trying to get on the other aside. Or also lose a lot of them in the charge (Especially if against Like Urban Cohorts), because more men are meeting braced heavy armor, and will also lose men on the retreat of the charge. Hope that helps.