red hair in the illiad

[Julian the apostate]

menelaus had red hair? did mycenes have hair colors as such and also do any of the islands actually match up in the ionic sea and such

[IrishArmenian]

Well, Menelaus could be that very small percentile of people who had ancestors from the Norse lands who traveled down to the area and assimilated into the culture, still holding on to one of their genes.

[Watchman]

I seem to recall having seen offhand mentions of the Thracians having relatively commonly been described as red-haired...

[Marshal Murat]

1.He could have Norse heritage
2.The Iiliad was created by the Celts, who used their history to create this epic, and that Menelaus, who has red hair, is actually a Celtic prince.
Check it out.

[Watchman]

Stupid question, but since when was Norse pedigree associated with red hair anyway...?

[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

Can you point us to the passage in question?

[Del Arroyo]

I seem to recall Menelaus being mentioned as having red hair.

The entire Iliad is available online. If somebody wanted to they could check.

As far as the Iliad being made up by the Celts-- how fascinating! Because of course, it makes perfect sense-- what better way to glorify their history and culture, than to write a literary epic which only a handful of deluded crockpots would believe was actually written by them!!

[Justiciar]

Thracian genes makes vastly more sense.

Could also be that in said early period in history there hadn't been quite so much intermarrying with darker haired, swarthier people, meaning that Red or Blonde hair wouldn't have been unheard of in the region. Think of northern europe today and it's steadily shrinking portion of blondes and red heads. Just a wild stab in the dark! At any rate, red hair must have been rare, otherwise it wouldn't have merrited mention.

[Marshal Murat]

http://www.troy-in-england.co.uk/

I like the idea, just because it makes more sense than the idea of the Greeks using chariots in a very Celtic style then reverting back to other styles.
Especially if you compare the the Iliad to Celts in Britain, and their tactics.

[Del Arroyo]

http://www.troy-in-england.co.uk/

I like the idea, just because it makes more sense than the idea of the Greeks using chariots in a very Celtic style then reverting back to other styles.
Especially if you compare the the Iliad to Celts in Britain, and their tactics.

I must concede that the theory, as presented on the site you linked, does make some sense. It basically says that peoples from the North were moving into the Mediterranean around these times, which IS true, and that they took the oral history with them and it got adapted to their new language and new region.

Still, I'm not convinced. I would like to hear an opposing argument.

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

The Iiliad was created by the Celts

Homer was a celt?

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

As far as the Iliad being made up by the Celts-- how fascinating! Because of course, it makes perfect sense-- what better way to glorify their history and culture, than to write a literary epic which only a handful of deluded crockpots would believe was actually written by them!!

Making up for Julius Caesar

[Watchman]

I like the idea, just because it makes more sense than the idea of the Greeks using chariots in a very Celtic style then reverting back to other styles.
Especially if you compare the the Iliad to Celts in Britain, and their tactics.

The Iliad was compiled centuries after the Mycenean chariot warfare had been abandoned, so the descriptions on exactly how they went about using those noisy things are understandably a little confused. The Dorics, having cast to ruin the arostocratic charioteers and their civilization, obviously had never seen any reason to preserve the know-how. Surviving pictorial sources suggest the Myceneans used the "light" pattern of chariot very popular in the Chariot Age Middle East though, which was chiefly a mobile archery platform. The bit about Odysseus' strong bow is pretty interesting in that regard.

The Celtic tradition of chariot warfare had rather little in common with the by then long defunct two main schools of Late Bronze Age chariotry, although a descendant of the Hittites' "heavy shock" approach was used by the Assyrians until their end, by some accounts by the Carthaginians as a terror weapon until they turned to elephants, and by the Indian armies Alexander fought.

[Julian the apostate]

thank you for the link.
a shame i'd have to spend money as i'm broke

[KARTLOS]

in classical times a larger percentage of the poulation was fair headed. blondes were much more common as were red heads.

the ethnic composition of people described as greek has changed alot since then for many reasons. modern greeks are not really an exclusive ethnic group, in comparison for example to norwegians. Being greek more signifies a common cultural heritage rather than distinctive genetics.

[Watchman]

Well, the Greek peninsula is kind of in media res and duly pretty much everyone and their dog went there at one point or another. Fennoscandia is kind of a cold and hostile backwater on the edge of nowhere, so the incoming traffic was naturally rather puny in comparision.

[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

in classical times a larger percentage of the poulation was fair headed. blondes were much more common as were red heads.

And your sources for this statement are?

[KARTLOS]

And your sources for this statement are?

it is just quite a common observation that many of the ancient greeks were described as being blonde, freckly etc.

obviously there still remains some fair greeks but it is certainly not common.

do you need a source for the fact that the ethnic make- up of the greeks has changed massively since classical times?

Interestingly a number of egpytian pharoes mummies have been found to have
blonde and red hair. I believe Ramsess II was a red head!

[KARTLOS]

here is a link on rameses red headed ness:

http://www.north-of-africa.com/artic...id_article=210

[Spino]

I think there is a faulty assumption at work in this thread which takes the position that the genes responsible for red hair originated with Celtic & other northern European peoples. True, there is an undeniable concentration of red haired people in Central and Northern Europe but the gene flow pattern might actually be the other way around, with red hair originating in N. Africa and/or Central Asia and slowly working its way into N. Europe where the gene was allowed to flourish in smaller, isolated populations.

There is also the possibility that the mutation which brought about red hair spontaneously appeared in two or more 'unrelated' populations but I don't know if I would put too much money on that one.

I love the idea that Ramses actually was a wavy haired, red head of the swarthy persuasion. Not only does it blast the sub-Saharan revisionist theory out of the water but it lends itself to forcing Hollyweird to seriously rethink its casting decisions...

[Vladimir]

There was an image I saw some time ago of one of Saddam Hussein's former generals. This man had light skin and red hair. His age may have affected his coloration but it was remarked that he was of Assyrian origin. Also aryans are from Iran and region correct?

[KARTLOS]

I think there is a faulty assumption at work in this thread which takes the position that the genes responsible for red hair originated with Celtic & other northern European peoples. True, there is an undeniable concentration of red haired people in Central and Northern Europe but the gene flow pattern might actually be the other way around, with red hair originating in N. Africa and/or Central Asia and slowly working its way into N. Europe where the gene was allowed to flourish in smaller, isolated populations.

There is also the possibility that the mutation which brought about red hair spontaneously appeared in two or more 'unrelated' populations but I don't know if I would put too much money on that one.

I love the idea that Ramses actually was a wavy haired, red head of the swarthy persuasion. Not only does it blast the sub-Saharan revisionist theory out of the water but it lends itself to forcing Hollyweird to seriously rethink its casting decisions...

you cant really get swarthy red heads. the genes which produce red hair also result in fair skin. Freckles are almost inevitable!

The ancient pharoes would therefore most likely not looked much like modern egyptains, and instead were fairly eurpoean in appearence. (that is kingdom began to fall into terminal decline in the third intemdiate period and there was a nubian dynatsty)

[KARTLOS]

I think there is a faulty assumption at work in this thread which takes the position that the genes responsible for red hair originated with Celtic & other northern European peoples. True, there is an undeniable concentration of red haired people in Central and Northern Europe but the gene flow pattern might actually be the other way around, with red hair originating in N. Africa and/or Central Asia and slowly working its way into N. Europe where the gene was allowed to flourish in smaller, isolated populations.

There is also the possibility that the mutation which brought about red hair spontaneously appeared in two or more 'unrelated' populations but I don't know if I would put too much money on that one.

:

you are correct that the gentic mutations which produce red hair might have arisen sperately in several locations. such mutations will be occuring right now anywhere in the world. however there a re two factors which favour the survival of red-headedness in northern europe.

firstly - the genes for dark hair are dominant over those which produce red har, which in turn are dominant over the genes for blondeness. Therefore mutations which result in red har are much more likley to be noticed in a population in which blondeness is common.

secondly as i mentioned previoulsy red hair is intimately connected to skin colour . There is obviously going to be a selective pressure against red hair in sunnier locations.

interstingly there are some berber tribes in the atlas mountain in north africa with large percentages of blonde and red haired individuals.

[Oleander Ardens]

The bit about Odysseus' strong bow .. a watchful watchman. Long life the Hornaboga

Cheers
OA

[KARTLOS]

There was an image I saw some time ago of one of Saddam Hussein's former generals. This man had light skin and red hair. His age may have affected his coloration but it was remarked that he was of Assyrian origin. Also aryans are from Iran and region correct?

iran actually means land of the aryans.

there are in fact considerable number of blode and fair headed people in iran. the sarmatians and alans were and iranic-speaking people and are described as being blonde and fair by contemporary accounts. in fact blond/red hair and fair skin can be seen throughout central asia in iranic speaking populations eg kurdistan afghanistan etc


however the nazi notion of aryans being a blonde maste race is completely discredited now. i.e there is no evidence that the modern population of germany is closesly related genetically to indo-iranian "aryans".

[Marshal Murat]

Unfortunately for Ramses II, the hairstyles were bald with a wig of hair.

[Watchman]

interstingly there are some berber tribes in the atlas mountain in north africa with large percentages of blonde and red haired individuals.

Isn't that usually attributed to the Vandals ?

[Orb]

Alexeios (I) of the Byzantine empire is said (by his daughter) to have had bright red hair.

[Vladimir]

Isn't that usually attributed to the Vandals ?

After all this time those regions must be prety isolated.

[Watchman]

That much the better for keeping alive recessive genetic features then. Happens a lot with isolated populations.