Out of Character thread

[econ21]

On historical armies, let's follow Lucjan's idea. I propose the following army list for a full historical stack:

1-2 Generals
2-8 knights or dismounted men-at-arms (MAA)/foot knights
0-4 other cavalry (mted crossbows, mtd sergeants, reiters etc)
2-8 spears or pikes; peasants and town guard
0-4 zweihanders, halberds & other swords apart from dismounted knights/MAA
1-6 foot missiles (archers, crossbows, handguns etc)
0-5 artillery

Plus a final provisio: no more than half the stack can be mercenaries (not inappropriate, as HRE used these a lot).

For half a stack, just halve the above list. Stacks less than 7 units strong or in settlements don't have to follow the above.

My proposal is based on Terry Gore's Medieval Warfare army lists for miniatures. His system works in "stands", but I'm going to assume 4 of his stands is roughly one unit. I am going to allow more artillery if we want a siege train for assaulting settlements.

Here's Gore's draft army list for an early HRE army:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

56. MEDIEVAL GERMAN PRINCES: EARLY 12TH TO LATE 15TH.

The Medieval German armies were made up of various local troops from principalities which paid nominal loyalty to the Holy Roman Emperor. The mainstay of German armies continued to be the lance-armed wedging knight. The militia foot, which were drawn from the German cities, were of little use unless placed in a defensive position. There were quality foot, however, as well, notably the Swabian swordsmen and mercenaries. Under Emperor Otto IV, they were the losers to the French at the pivotal Battle of Bouvines in 1214.
The Germans learned to utilize horse archers, using Hungarians as well as mounted trained crossbowmen to support the knights in their attacks. The standard tactics were to hold with the foot in the center, allowing the knights to ride through them to charge as well as retire back through them in retreat. The Swabians and mercenary foot could anchor one flank while knights and light cavalry attacked the other. Generalship sometimes proved more of a hindrence than a help. At Tagliacozzo in 1268, 6,000 Germans under Frederick of Austria fought 3-5,000 French-Italians under Charles I of Naples. The Germans did not bother to scout the battlefield and were surprised by a concealed division of 1,000 men which attacked their rear, effectively surrounding them.
This is a good army for the tough-minded gamer, but can be a problem for beginners.

1-5 CiC/Generals, FMC Veteran, L/Sh, 3 @ 54/39
6-18 Feudal Knights, FMC Veteran, L/Sh, 3 @ 14
6-18 Imperial Knights, FMC Warriors(T), L/Sh, 3 @ 13
-8 Hungarian Cavalry, SC Warriors, Bow, 2 @ 3
-4 Halberdiers, HI Warriors(T), Hal/Pa, 4 @ 7
8-16* Militia Spearmen, LAI Poor(T), LSp/Sh, 4 @ 5
4-8* Militia Crossbows, LAI Poor (T), CB, 4 @ 4
-12 Militia Archers, SI Warriors(T), Bow, 2 @ 2
-24 Heerban, UI Warriors, LSp/Sh, 4 @ 4
-8 Mounted Crossbows, SC Warriors(T), CB, 2 @ 4
-6 Mercenary Spearmen, HI Warriors(T), LSp/Sh, 4 @ 7
-8 Swabian Swordsmen, HI Warriors, Axe/Sh, 4 @ 6


After Late 14th

4-8 Handgunners, HI Warriors(T), HG/Pa, 4 loose @ 7
All -Upgrade Knights to AC @ +2
-1/2 -Upgrade AC to FPC @ +2
All -Upgrade Mercenary Spear to 1/4 Hal, rest P @ + 0
All -Upgrade Militia Spear to Pike no shield @ -1
All -Upgrade Mtd. CB to HG @ + 0

Note: Any Knights may use Wedge. Militia LAI may be in mixed units. Knights and (T) close order foot may use Crusader Mixed Order.

Here's the late period one:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

83. LATER MEDIEVAL GERMAN: EARLY 14TH TO LATE 15TH

The armies of the Holy Roman Empire made extensive use of mercenaries in its countless wars with its neighbors. The German army had to be versatile, it fought so many different types of enemies. To this end, the Emperors employed Hungarians, Low Countrymen, Italians, various pikemen and, later on, handgunners.
Tactically, the Germans can play a very intricate game of enticing an enemy to attack and then counter-charging him with numbers of knights when the enemy is unsupported or disordered. Use the feudal foot, in mixed weapon units, to anchor a flank. The center and other flank can be kept open for flanking maneuvers, skirmishing and deadly charges by the German knights.

This is a good army for any level of player.
1-5 CiC/Generals, FPC Veteran, L/Sh, 3 @ 58/43
Any -Downgrade to Warriors(T) @ -1
4-8 Feudal Knights, FPC Veteran, L/Sh, 3 @ 18
4-12 German Knights, FPC Warriors(T), L/Sh, 3 @ 17
-4 Mounted Crossbowmen, HC Warriors(T), CB, 3 @ 10
-8 Hungarian Cavalry, SC Warriors, B/Sh, 2 @ 4
6-30 Feudal Foot, LAI Poor(T), 1/2 Hal/Pa, 1/2 LSp or CB/Pa, 4
@ 5
-4 Halberdiers, LAI Warriors(T), Hal, 4 @ 5
4-16 Crossbowmen, HI Warriors(T), CB/Pa, 4 loose @ 7
-8 Skirmishers, SI Warriors(T), CB, 2 @ 2
-2 Organ Guns, ARTY Warriors, 3 crew @ 13

After Mid-15th

-12 Pikemen, LAI Warriors(T), Pike, 4 @ 5
-4 -Upgrade to HI @ +1
4-12 Handgunners, HI Warriors(T), HG/Pa, 4 loose @ 7
-2 Bombard, ARTY Warriors, 4 crew @ 16

Note: Any knights may use Wedge. Feudal foot may be in mixed weapon units.

Here's the abbreviations for those interested in the details:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Abbreviations for Weapons:
L= Lance, B= Bow, Sh= Shield, P= Pike, Hal= Halberd, LSp= Long spear, Sp= Spear, Jav= Javelin, Var= Various CB= Crossbow, S= Sling, SS= Staff sling, LB= Longbow, Pa= Pavisse, HG= Handgun, ARTY = Artillery, either bolt/stone throwers or guns..

Abbreviations for Troops:
SI/SC = Skirmish infantry/cavalry.
UI/UC = Unarmored infantry/cavalry.
LAI/LAC = Lightly Armored infantry/cavalry.
HI/HC = Partially Mailed infantry/cavalry.
FMI or FMC = Fully Mailed infantry or knights/cavalry.
AI or AC = Armored infantry or knights/cavalry.
FPI or FPC = Full Plate-Armored infantry or knights/cavalry.
ARTY = Artillery.

The lists all include:
• The minimum and maximum number of stands allowed.
• The unit name or troop type of the stnads.
• The armour class of the figures.
• The morale quality of the troops.
• The weapons carried by the figures in the unit.
• The number of figures per stand (and order, if applicable).
• The points cost per stand (for CiC and Generals points, the first number is for the CiC and the second is for the Generals). Asterisks indicate minimums and maximums of troops allowed if that particular nationality or troop type is used.

Lucjan your idea for distributing battles is interesting but seems rather complex. I'll leave it to individual Chancellors to adopt or not.

Ituralde: yes, people can take agents as avatars. I think we have a diplomat, maybe a spy and a priest. They would all be suitable.

On Dukes etc, TinCow, I think the Duke has a fair amount of power - they allocate settlements to players (after the Emperor has allocated settlements to Dukes) and they can take them away from players who are not their natural sons. Most ancillaries are not tradable and personally, I don't want players to change other player's traits. I suspect the Houses will work fairly well due to the geographic angle - go east, west, north etc. That was quite pronounced in WotS.

Lucjan: I thought of creating more than four Houses, but then we lose the neat family tree division. I'd prefer to keep it to a simple four, like the Aemili etc in WotS. The Emperor should try to balance out the Houses when distributing settlements. I will when allocating avatars. I guess we should include a provision that the Diet cannot allocate settlements - I want these powers not to be democratic.

On the turns per year, I would prefer people hold their noses and just go with the game as it was designed. The passage of events is designed to be a certain speed and I'd rather we enjoy bumping into Mongols, discover gunpowder, go to America etc in a decent time frame than worry too much about temporal paradoxes. I'm not a great fan of 4tpy mods etc.

Mount - good luck with the house move. I hope this PBM lasts a decent interval so you can join it in due course.

EDIT: Nice to have you on board, Emperor GeneralHankerchief (sounds like a character from Spaceballs).

As far as the screenshot issue (which popped up in WotS Post-Mortem), perhaps we could keep them full size but put them under spoiler tags (or iFrames, courtesy of Tosa). That way we could click them and they would load one-at-a-time. In addition, it keeps that nasty little horizontal scrollbar from showing up.

Yes, I was thinking of that - let's use spoiler tags for images. Just wrap the link with [ spoil] and [ /spoil] without the spaces.