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[AnthoniusII]

It is really true! European medieval cities were huge and vast! the "small villages" of London, Rome, Paris and Venice had 100,000 people each! They also had very few publiic buildings such as cathedrals, university, lots of guilds, huge markets, taverns, inns, schools, hospitals, courts. They also had a poor mangemant, with laws, civil codes, punishments for certain crimes, rights and duties list for every citizen. These is a truely poor managemant system! and off coruse that europe had 10 nillion people after the plague and that a century before it had 60 million people, and it is totally possible that that since than, 650 years past and europe's population greaw in 6530%, it is surely possible, isn't it?

You are correct about italian cities,london,paris even for some ex roman cities and forts...Constantinople in 1000ad had 600000 population and it was only one of the huge urban centers throuch out the east...European cities could NOT habidant over 100000 (if you are wright) because they had not what they need to...clean water mainly and health fasilities swers for examble.Exept the italian and the ex roman cities no other european one had such comforts maybe because in the catholicism was blasfime for people to clean them selfs...See the famous renaisance pallaces,they had no toilets...If the royal members were like this imagine the peasantry...When spanish took over Granada they destoyed most of those health fassilities...That was the main deferance between eastmen and westmen...Arabs translate all ancient sripts and continued the roman way of city structhures..,When the crusaders ocupayed Jerusalem massacered almost all the population cristian and muslim and desroyed all it's fasillities because they could NOT oparate them."HISTORY OG BALTWIN"

[King Orko]

You are correct about italian cities,london,paris even for some ex roman cities and forts...Constantinople in 1000ad had 600000 population and it was only one of the huge urban centers throuch out the east...European cities could NOT habidant over 100000 (if you are wright) because they had not what they need to...clean water mainly and health fasilities swers for examble.Exept the italian and the ex roman cities no other european one had such comforts maybe because in the catholicism was blasfime for people to clean them selfs...See the famous renaisance pallaces,they had no toilets...If the royal members were like this imagine the peasantry...When spanish took over Granada they destoyed most of those health fassilities...That was the main deferance between eastmen and westmen...Arabs translate all ancient sripts and continued the roman way of city structhures..,When the crusaders ocupayed Jerusalem massacered almost all the population cristian and muslim and desroyed all it's fasillities because they could NOT oparate them."HISTORY OG BALTWIN"

1. the reinessance palaces didn't have toilets because in this times, the toilet an invention that was not still invented them!
2. I read a book about it and it says that in the 11th century Europe started using advanced medicine, they started building hospital and they were the first ones to do so, in spain there was a medical testing for all the citizens once a month!
3. I also read a book about that and I discoverd that constantinople had 200,000 in the middle ages
4. Paris was one of the most advanced cities in europe, with a wide number of people and public buildings and I am sure that it got 100,000 people in that time

[Milovan]

1. the reinessance palaces didn't have toilets because in this times, the toilet an invention that was not still invented them!
2. I read a book about it and it says that in the 11th century Europe started using advanced medicine, they started building hospital and they were the first ones to do so, in spain there was a medical testing for all the citizens once a month!
3. I also read a book about that and I discoverd that constantinople had 200,000 in the middle ages
4. Paris was one of the most advanced cities in europe, with a wide number of people and public buildings and I am sure that it got 100,000 people in that time

??????????

1. The toilet itself was found in palaces of ancient Greeks and many others (I can't believe what we're discussing right now...)
2. So 11th century EUROPE INVENTED hospitals? Did they not exist in the Muslim world long before that? And weren't these European hospitals meant to house only plague victims? And the advanced medicine usually included ingredients such as 'unicorn's horn powder' (that's from the London plague in the 1600's)
3. What book? Great discovery, Columbus.
4. Sure, it was big and great and center of known world, etc but WHAT makes you so sure it was 100k?

[Sandouras]

King Orko you are extremely biased and a blind fanboy. learn2/history
Also, last year i did a project about hospitals in the Byz. empire. Sure, they didnt have scalpels and modern drugs, but you would be amazed by the level of organization these hospitals had. They had wings for different illnesses, wings for the elderly and the staff/patient ratio was 3:1 if i remember correctly, which is outstanding! Historians say that modern hospitals have their routes on those byz hospitals.

[King Orko]

??????????

1. The toilet itself was found in palaces of ancient Greeks and many others (I can't believe what we're discussing right now...)
2. So 11th century EUROPE INVENTED hospitals? Did they not exist in the Muslim world long before that? And weren't these European hospitals meant to house only plague victims? And the advanced medicine usually included ingredients such as 'unicorn's horn powder' (that's from the London plague in the 1600's)
3. What book? Great discovery, Columbus.
4. Sure, it was big and great and center of known world, etc but WHAT makes you so sure it was 100k?

1. these toilets were just holes where you craped in and not truely toilets, and these toilets existed in the middle ages.
2. yes Europe invented hospitals and the great center of medicine ever was in the city of Salerno, That is in EUROPE
3. belive me
4. the book I read

[AnthoniusII]

1. these toilets were just holes where you craped in and not truely toilets, and these toilets existed in the middle ages.
2. yes Europe invented hospitals and the great center of medicine ever was in the city of Salerno, That is in EUROPE
3. belive me
4. the book I read

Why my dear felow can you not admit that in ancient,roman and medeival ages europe was far behind in medicine,health facilities,state organisation and many things more,than greek,roman,midleeast,chinesse and other civilisations...Alicarnasus (today under turkish rule in the west coast of asia minor) had swers build in 8th century bc and are still in use...Ancient people like egyptians,persians ,greeks and many others payed to much attention to public health.After all all doctors of the world still vouh on Ippocrates... Afcourse Romans took the technology of health ages beyond...Byzantines used and developed this tech.Arabs after they conquered ex roman and ex byzantine provinses adapted the culthure they found in them,simply because they were open minded and had no coblex of superiority...See the islamic cities of toledo,cordoba,granada and compeare them with european cities of their time...If europe knows something obout ancient culture,philosophy and technology is becaouse of the arabs and their weal for knowlege. So my friend be open minded your self.You might know something more...

[King Orko]

Why my dear felow can you not admit that in ancient,roman and medeival ages europe was far behind in medicine,health facilities,state organisation and many things more,than greek,roman,midleeast,chinesse and other civilisations...Alicarnasus (today under turkish rule in the west coast of asia minor) had swers build in 8th century bc and are still in use...Ancient people like egyptians,persians ,greeks and many others payed to much attention to public health.After all all doctors of the world still vouh on Ippocrates... Afcourse Romans took the technology of health ages beyond...Byzantines used and developed this tech.Arabs after they conquered ex roman and ex byzantine provinses adapted the culthure they found in them,simply because they were open minded and had no coblex of superiority...See the islamic cities of toledo,cordoba,granada and compeare them with european cities of their time...If europe knows something obout ancient culture,philosophy and technology is becaouse of the arabs and their weal for knowlege. So my friend be open minded your self.You might know something more...

From my impression it seems that you try to argue with me and take this too serious. I don't say that you are completely wrong, I knoe that roman, Arab and Greek civilizations were advanced I don't say they weren;t, I zust try to prove you that the european middle ages were not the most poor ages of all times and that only bad things happend than and nothing good happend, that all of the populationwas stupid and they didn't know anything about managemennt, medicine or science, because you think so.

[AnthoniusII]

From my impression it seems that you try to argue with me and take this too serious. I don't say that you are completely wrong, I knoe that roman, Arab and Greek civilizations were advanced I don't say they weren;t, I zust try to prove you that the european middle ages were not the most poor ages of all times and that only bad things happend than and nothing good happend, that all of the populationwas stupid and they didn't know anything about managemennt, medicine or science, because you think so.

I have nothing personal with anyone...In these forums we all try to make the GAME we like a bit better.No human race is stupid that's for sure.All humans have their own share for humanity's development.As for the history we all must remember what Thoucidides(the father of historians)said... History is a number of facts that none can change...but if someone wishes to know them can not simply have only one view,even after 100 views a historian is just closer to the truth... PS This series of games were a good reason for all of us to learn something more and we just share our knowlege.Have fun

[mlp071]

1. these toilets were just holes where you craped in and not truely toilets, and these toilets existed in the middle ages.
2. yes Europe invented hospitals and the great center of medicine ever was in the city of Salerno, That is in EUROPE
3. belive me
4. the book I read

I don't know which book you read , but i would sugest you to find different author. That one sunds like someone that had all things twisted

Did you ever had chance to se Roman toiletes?They were not just holes, they had runing watter in it. After fall or WRE, barbarians (Saxons, Allemanni,Goths,etc...)neglected almost everything that was unknown and new for them(civilized) .They kept only their tribal ideas(hence fiefdoms and petty internal fights)

Universities and hospitals were invention of Ancient world (not just romans).
Only ones that kept them alive were ERE and eastern nations.While in Europe ,when they needed to go , they would grab first tree.

Hospital and University in Baghdad or Cordoba (for example) were established before any in Europe.They were part of great mosques, but they still existed.
Soap was used by Easterners 500 years before Europe,they only started to use it(in very limited way) after First crusade.Constantinopole had runing watter , public baths and libraries till it's fall.While at same time London had open sewage in middle of the streets till 18-19 century(yuck).

It was noted by catholic monks visiting Moorish Cordoba , that just one household library there contained more books then whole Western Europe at that time.

And eye surgeries(or any complicated) were common in those same areas way before medieval Europe even knew about them. Not to mention that in East there were using some version of checking accounts already.

I am not gonna even start how much advanced Chinese were in comparison to Europe at that time.

[King Orko]

I don't know which book you read , but i would sugest you to find different author. That one sunds like someone that had all things twisted

Did you ever had chance to se Roman toiletes?They were not just holes, they had runing watter in it. After fall or WRE, barbarians (Saxons, Allemanni,Goths,etc...)neglected almost everything that was unknown and new for them(civilized) .They kept only their tribal ideas(hence fiefdoms and petty internal fights)

Universities and hospitals were invention of Ancient world (not just romans).
Only ones that kept them alive were ERE and eastern nations.While in Europe ,when they needed to go , they would grab first tree.

Hospital and University in Baghdad or Cordoba (for example) were established before any in Europe.They were part of great mosques, but they still existed.
Soap was used by Easterners 500 years before Europe,they only started to use it(in very limited way) after First crusade.Constantinopole had runing watter , public baths and libraries till it's fall.While at same time London had open sewage in middle of the streets till 18-19 century(yuck).

It was noted by catholic monks visiting Moorish Cordoba , that just one household library there contained more books then whole Western Europe at that time.

And eye surgeries(or any complicated) were common in those same areas way before medieval Europe even knew about them. Not to mention that in East there were using some version of checking accounts already.

I am not gonna even start how much advanced Chinese were in comparison to Europe at that time.

The book is not wrong, you are wrong!
The liibrary of Cordoba had more books than all of existing ones in Europe?!!! Come on! to do that you had to build a two miles high buildings that has 10 miles each side! it is impposible!

medieval toilets were just like Roman ones!
So you are right, the Europeans didn't invent hospital, but they invented universitys for sure, they wrote in wikipedia that the first universities were estabelished in Europe, in Bulgaria, and than in Constantinople, than in Salerno, Bologna(that is consided as one of the most greatest univeritys in the world), than in Paris, than in Oxford. they didn't say in Cordoba! do you know what was the size of hotel dieu in Paris that was founded in the yrar 653?

[Milovan]

The book is not wrong, you are wrong!

Thanks for that one, I needed a good laugh... Seriously, though, if your primary sources are wikipedia and a book whose name or author you consistently avoid to expose, you really won't get anyone to believe those claims, completely ridiculous or not (and they pretty much are).

[mlp071]

Well according to same Wikipedia(which is not most accurate resource , btw ):

- if you don't count Plato's school as university , although by size it was
- University in Nalanda( todays India) 450AD
- University in Constantinopole 5th century AD
- University of Al-Karaouine (Fez , Morroco) 859AD
- Al-Azhar University around (Egypt) 9th century

then you have Ohrid , and then Salerno.....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univers...t_universities

Last 2 (Al-Karaouine,Al-Azhar) are oldest universites that are still working.So 4 oldest ones are not in Europe , except one in Constantinopole

Most renown in Christian world was Bologna and in Islamic world is Al-Azhar (even today). So "most renown" term is also relative from religion point.

Please remember that Church was trying to supress any knowledge of writing for centuries, trying to keep it limited to clergy only.Thats why there was not to many books in Europe att.While in East at same time written word was fully encouraged.

And most of European knowledge came from research and discoveries made in so-called "Islamic golden age " that lasted from 622 to 1258, when was destroyed by Mongols.That knowledge triggered Renaissance period later on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

Just to make it clear i am originally from Europe (in USA now)and i was born and lived near relatively close to some of those European universities.

And regarding Baghdad Library :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Wisdom


Either way we are getting way off the topic of this thread .You can open another thread for this discussion. I don't mind going there and discussing it further