Capo de Tutti Capi [Concluded]

**CountArach** · 01-24-2007, 09:18

Originally Posted by The Stranger

because I got shown one true an intracable email... I told you that Beirut was a made! How do you think I know...

We don't know what Beirut was... we still haven't got the results of the Autopsy.

**The Stranger** · 01-24-2007, 09:22

well... youll hear soon... and I'll prove you right.

**CountArach** · 01-24-2007, 09:26

Originally Posted by The Stranger

well... youll hear soon... and I'll prove you right.

Then we shall see.

And by prove me right, you do realise I am leaning towards you being Mafia, don't you?

**The Stranger** · 01-24-2007, 09:29

Well, frankly... I don't give a ****.

There are to many people that KNOW that I'm a townie, Pro-Town Townie.

**Ituralde** · 01-24-2007, 09:49

Well that was some inconclusive gibberish on the last few pages.
I don't buy pevergreens PM and reveal, but I would have still prefered to prove his investigations wrong before lynching him. I'm reluctant to put another vote on a possible detective and I guess it's also too late to lynch Sasaki or The Stranger to verify pevergreens investigations.

Vote: Abstain

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Warluster** · 01-24-2007, 09:52

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

just fixing up the list, I also voted for Andres a while back.

**Pannonian** · 01-24-2007, 11:28

Originally Posted by Redleg

I wonder what [b]MRD's[b] autosphy is going to show?

If it helps, my very first conversation in this game was with MRD, his PM arriving soon after my townie PM. Here it is with the subsequent replies.

Originally Posted by Pannonian

Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

Tell me who you want me to recruit/investigate. I can't kill anyone until we get another wiseguy/made. I suggest Hanky spend his turns protecting you.

snip email address

What info did you get in your PM? I don't really want to commit myself until I know more about what's going on. It's the first time I've played one of the more complicated games.

Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

I'm a wiseguy, but I don't know who the others are except you, and GH is the doctor. I need 2 other wiseguys to make kills, or 3 townies for a townie kill. I don't want to join a family unless I have to, I'd rather us wiseguys start a new family

Based on this, I PMed GH.

Originally Posted by Pannonian

Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Originally Posted by Pannonian

I know this seems a bit forward or even rude to ask, but are you a doctor? I've received info from somewhere indicating you might be something of the sort.

Ugh, I thought I told Kage not to tell anybody...

Yeah, I'm a doc. Please don't broadcast it though. What about you?

Would you believe me if I told you I'm a townie? BTW, was it only Kagemusha that you told? What is Kage?

Originally Posted by Pannonian

Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Well, you're obviously fishing for roles so I don't really trust you, but nobody trusts anyone in this game so I guess it's okay.

As far as telling others, I think I only told Kage (he claims he is a wiseguy btw), but there might have been someone else. Kage sticks out.

It's my first try at a more complicated game (my only two were M3 and M5), so I'm cautious until I can figure it out. I've had someone approach me claiming to be a wiseguy, so I'm confused already.

Just snipping for readability's sake.

Based on that, I later tried to organise a protection squad with MRD and Kage. Unsuccessfully, as MRD replied too late to coordinate efforts (I PMed MRD with the direct proposal but not Kage, since I'd had direct contact with MRD), while Kage only replied to my general proposal "Wanna turn clean?" a day or so after the deadline.

So I was played like a fool by GH, but what are MRD and Kage?

**Pannonian** · 01-24-2007, 11:31

Originally Posted by ByzantineKnight

Stig could tell you as well, Someone asked what we should do to keep him alive. I accidentally mentioned (in the thread) that there was a protection group for pevergreen.

I can confirm this, and this is partly why my suspicions of The_Stranger have lessened. That said, a Don can participate in protection groups, so that doesn't clear him entirely.

**Death Match** · 01-24-2007, 11:44

I am sorry, my stupid internet browser keeps shutting down as soon as i have enough time to post on my upcoming game. question: am I dead?

**Ironside** · 01-24-2007, 11:46

As The_Stranger already noticed.

pevergreens investigation post

tagged under the spoil tags in case it gets edited.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Originally Posted by the message the pevergreen got from Seamus

Results from Night 3 Investigations:

Sasaki Kojiro shows as Criminal
The Stranger shows as Innocent

Based on this I'm saying that pevergreen is lying, as he's supposed to been quoting Seamus and is commenting The_Stranger results as criminal in the first. Thus no accidental mis-match on the writing, but in the mind.

I would still prefer to make some certification first, but this is a too comprimising evidence. Think about it, a person who's life depends on truth lies...

Vote: pevergreen

pevergreen you'll need a very good explaination for this to survive.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

His interest of seeing Sasaki dead is interesting though, Sasaki is obviously considered important (not sure if it's pro-townie or rival mafia though).

**HughTower** · 01-24-2007, 11:53

Originally Posted by pevergreen

Originally Posted by Seamus

Results from Night 3 Investigations:

Sasaki Kojiro shows as Criminal
The Stranger shows as Innocent.

There.

Originally Posted by Warluster

You can investigate two people a night ( Cant you? )
I feel reluctant to believe that so-called 'PM' you put up Pevergreen, if it was a real PM, then wouldn't it have Seamus's full title? And why would you just 'Throw' out the info?

Originally Posted by ByzantineKnight

I am almost sure now that he(pevergreen) is mafia, just one clairification, how do you know what a detective PM looks like??

Originally Posted by CountArach

So how do you know what a detective PM looks? Would you care to show us exactly?

Warluster is right - Seamus' full title is missing from the quote. Also, Seamus abbreviated to N3 in his PM title to me, & there is one more stylistic point of difference which I'll keep to myself for the moment, but which is easily discernable for those who look carefully. Also, NB, I'm not comparing it with a investigation PM specifically - I cannot claim to be more important than I am.

If The Stranger has access to a detective M on Beirut, well that's fine too. I don't think he should show it, but we should just wait for his autopsy to reveal his nature. I think my rationale should be enough to convince people of pevergreen's guilt (of either obstructing the town or worse).

Vote: pevergreen

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

EDIT: to change vote record after synchronous posting with Ironside

**HughTower** · 01-24-2007, 12:09

Originally Posted by Pannionian

Originally Posted by Redleg

I wonder what [b]MRD's[b] autosphy is going to show?

If it helps, my very first conversation in this game was with MRD, his PM arriving soon after my townie PM. Here it is with the subsequent replies.

Originally Posted by Pannonian

Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

Tell me who you want me to recruit/investigate. I can't kill anyone until we get another wiseguy/made. I suggest Hanky spend his turns protecting you.

snip email address

What info did you get in your PM? I don't really want to commit myself until I know more about what's going on. It's the first time I've played one of the more complicated games.

I'm sorry, but I read this as MRD being a made, Hanky being the Luca (which we know), & you the Don. Why else would MRD say this, and the only people who know others' roles at the start of the game are scum?

Surely this is a monumental cock-up on your behalf?

**Pannonian** · 01-24-2007, 12:35

Originally Posted by HughTower

I'm sorry, but I read this as MRD being a made, Hanky being the Luca (which we know), & you the Don. Why else would MRD say this, and the only people who know others' roles at the start of the game are scum?

Surely this is a monumental cock-up on your behalf?

I read it as MRD being a wise guy looking to form a kill squad at the start of the game. I don't know where he got the information from about GH being a doctor, but evidently it was as accurate as his information that I was a wise guy/made/whatever. I was puzzled by this question out of the blue (see Ichigo's post for how bare the townie PM is), hence I asked him where on earth he got the leads from, whether other roles come with more information than a bare description of what they do. Can other wise guys confirm this or otherwise?

**pevergreen** · 01-24-2007, 12:44

Originally Posted by MRD

Tell me who you want me to recruit/investigate. I can't kill anyone until we get another wiseguy/made. I suggest Hanky spend his turns protecting you.

That to me is proof that you are a don.
Unvote; Vote: Pannonian

When i copy stuff seamus sends me, i dont always post it word for word. i cant spell the last name in his name so i always use "Seamus"

Check all of my posts. Anywere, its always "Seamus"

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Bah! Looks like i am to die.

**Orb** · 01-24-2007, 12:51

Vote:Pevergreen

Because I feel like it.

**HughTower** · 01-24-2007, 13:17

Originally Posted by Pannonian

I read it as MRD being a wise guy looking to form a kill squad at the start of the game. I don't know where he got the information from about GH being a doctor, but evidently it was as accurate as his information that I was a wise guy/made/whatever. I was puzzled by this question out of the blue (see Ichigo's post for how bare the townie PM is), hence I asked him where on earth he got the leads from, whether other roles come with more information than a bare description of what they do. Can other wise guys confirm this or otherwise?

MRD says ' ....tell me who you want me to recruit/investigate...'. This is not what a wiseguy would say, it is what a Made would to his Don. He would only say this to you if he already knew who were. Hanky is going to spend his turns protecting you, because that is his primary role as a Luca. It is important for them to recruit a wiseguy to kill, because a Made can't do it on his own, & the Luca is protecting the Don. So, these are the 4 possible explanations:

You've either screwed up, my friend, & you are the Don.
MRD mis-read his PM from Seamus & thought his Don was you (maybe a pevergreen or Pannionian similar name mix-up?)
This PM is not authentic - but, why you would fake it, I have no idea?
Seamus told MRD that you were his Don, but sent you a townie PM, & cocked-up his otherwise immaculately organised game

On to pevergreen,

Personally, I don't believe this next quote or think it is relevant.

Originally Posted by pevergreen

When i copy stuff seamus sends me, i dont always post it word for word. i cant spell the last name in his name so i always use "Seamus"

If I was PMing to save my skin, I'd be extra careful about making it look real. Also, Seamus used N3 in his post to me, not "Night 3", & I don't like the "shows as" phrase in the message. It's too clumsy for Seamus.

In my view, pevergreen is lying & should be lynched. Re: Pannionian, explanation 1 or 2 are most likely. Does anyone else have information that might lead them to cast suspicion on him (or MRD)?

**Moros** · 01-24-2007, 13:22

Unvote: adresthecunning
vote: pevergreen

I don't think I need to elaborate.

**The Stranger** · 01-24-2007, 13:30

Pevergreen is going down, today... Pannonian will be investigated.. BUT!

If he is really a don hell be shown as Innocent... so...

He really wants me dead... Why? Because I'm a danger to the town? I've never been... and if I acted like a danger before I righted my mistake.

The reason he wants me dead because if there is still a slightest chance that I can turn out to be a don, I'm of a rival gang and I must die. He doesnt wants to kill me because he thinks i'm protected by a luca... So he tries to get me lynched....

ALSO I LIKE TO CALL DOC_BEAN TO THE STAND.

Please tell me what role you have? Are you Pro Town? Are you a Townie, Wise Guy or a Mafia?

Be honest or you'll be DEAD!

**The Stranger** · 01-24-2007, 13:32

pevergreen - 13 (Kagemusha,Crazed Rabbit,AndresTheCunning, Sasaki, Xiahou, Papewaio, Orb, Moros, Destroyer of Hope, Stranger, Pindar, Ironside, HughTower)
AndresTheCunning - 4 ( Luigi VI di Fatlington,Warluster,CountArach, BKS)
ByzantineKnight - 1 (doc_bean)
Abstain - 5 (Alexander, ByzantineKnight, Destroyer of Hope, Kommodus, Ituralde)
Sasaki - 1 (Pannonian)
Reenk Roink - 1 (Reenk Roink)
No Lynch - 1 (Caius)
Pannonian - 1 (pevergreen)

**Stig** · 01-24-2007, 13:36

Tell me who you want me to recruit/investigate. I can't kill anyone until we get another wiseguy/made. I suggest Hanky spend his turns protecting you.

That to me is proof that you are a don.

Well in that case you can (note: can) be wrong ... Wise Guys can gang up with Made's too

just so you know

**The Stranger** · 01-24-2007, 13:43

But he is a made I think. Because GH protected him.

**HughTower** · 01-24-2007, 13:45

Originally Posted by Stig

Well in that case you can (note: can) be wrong ... Wise Guys can gang up with Made's too

just so you know

We do know that.

The point is, Stig, that MRD is asking him who to recruit or investigate, that he needs someone else to make a killing team (either a wiseguy or another Made), & he already know that Hanky is a Luca. The Don, who MRD, rightly or wrongly, thinks is Pannionian, is who is been asked for orders.

The question is whose mistake is this evidence, Pannionian for accidentally revealing it, or, MRD, for mis-reading his PMs.

**Pannonian** · 01-24-2007, 13:51

Originally Posted by HughTower

MRD says ' ....tell me who you want me to recruit/investigate...'. This is not what a wiseguy would say, it is what a Made would to his Don. He would only say this to you if he already knew who were. Hanky is going to spend his turns protecting you, because that is his primary role as a Luca. It is important for them to recruit a wiseguy to kill, because a Made can't do it on his own, & the Luca is protecting the Don. So, these are the 4 possible explanations:

You've either screwed up, my friend, & you are the Don.
MRD mis-read his PM from Seamus & thought his Don was you (maybe a pevergreen or Pannionian similar name mix-up?)
This PM is not authentic - but, why you would fake it, I have no idea?
Seamus told MRD that you were his Don, but sent you a townie PM, & cocked-up his otherwise immaculately organised game

I have no idea why MRD wrote his PM in that way, except perhaps that as a first time player he was trying to get into the mood of things, not knowing that plain argumentativeness is the preferred style here. But look at the substance of it, and you'll see that I asked him where he got the information fom without revealing anything about myself (which was the only sensible thing to do at the start of the game). After some probing, he eventually admits he's a wise guy, and doesn't know what everyone else except for me, which judging by his language I assume he thought was a fellow wise guy, and GH, whom he thought was a doctor.

There was a mix-up earlier in the game, when someone mixed up the names of Proletariat and pevergreen to her ire, drawing the remark that Pannonian wouldn't have been as bad as at least our names both begin with capital letters. If MRD did indeed mix us up, then I invite the Lady to join me in a double suicide. If I'm a townie as I say, this wouldn't matter much as I share in a town victory whether or not I survive, and there's a chance of taking a mafioso with me. If I'm a Don as you say, this will much reduce my gang's chances of winning. Just let Proletariat agree to the deal in this thread and kill herself, and I will do likewise the following round.

**The Stranger** · 01-24-2007, 13:56

Why the following round?

**Pannonian** · 01-24-2007, 14:00

Originally Posted by The Stranger

Why the following round?

How else am I going to verify she's killed herself?

**The Stranger** · 01-24-2007, 14:13

You can BOTH do it this round... If she does it this round... how is she going to be assured you do it next...?

**HughTower** · 01-24-2007, 14:21

Originally Posted by Pannonian

I have no idea why MRD wrote his PM in that way, except perhaps that as a first time player he was trying to get into the mood of things, not knowing that plain argumentativeness is the preferred style here. But look at the substance of it, and you'll see that I asked him where he got the information fom without revealing anything about myself (which was the only sensible thing to do at the start of the game). After some probing, he eventually admits he's a wise guy, and doesn't know what everyone else except for me, which judging by his language I assume he thought was a fellow wise guy, and GH, whom he thought was a doctor.

There was a mix-up earlier in the game, when someone mixed up the names of Proletariat and pevergreen to her ire, drawing the remark that Pannonian wouldn't have been as bad as at least our names both begin with capital letters. If MRD did indeed mix us up, then I invite the Lady to join me in a double suicide. If I'm a townie as I say, this wouldn't matter much as I share in a town victory whether or not I survive, and there's a chance of taking a mafioso with me. If I'm a Don as you say, this will much reduce my gang's chances of winning. Just let Proletariat agree to the deal in this thread and kill herself, and I will do likewise the following round.

It's a nice offer, but suspiciously impractical. Prole has been very inactive in this game so far (4 days since last post). There is no good reason why you have to do it together - if you're innocent, suicide yourself now, & be done with it, so the town can move on.

If what you say is true, then, of course, MRD realised his error, changed his tune & called GH a doctor - anyone would. In his first message, it is categoric - he's not roleplaying, he's addressing you as his Don, & naming GH as Luca. Full stop (or "period", for our chums over the pond).

If it is MRD's mistake initially, it is your mistake in making that reveal (or not understanding fully what it meant), & therefore drastic action is needed by yourself.

**AggonyDuck** · 01-24-2007, 14:25

Originally Posted by Pannonian

I have no idea why MRD wrote his PM in that way, except perhaps that as a first time player he was trying to get into the mood of things, not knowing that plain argumentativeness is the preferred style here.

MRD is not a first time player...

**The Stranger** · 01-24-2007, 14:26

Agreed.

**Pannonian** · 01-24-2007, 14:30

Originally Posted by The Stranger

You can BOTH do it this round... If she does it this round... how is she going to be assured you do it next...?

If I make this offer and she publicly accepts it and carries out her end of it, but I do not, my word will be worthless from then on and I might as well be dead for the purposes of this game.

You're thinking of survival as the point of this game. It's not. The aim is to ensure your group wins, whether or not you personally survive. Survival means you still have an active stake in the game, and can vote. But survival for survival's sake is not the point, if you harm your side's cause in the process. If you remain alive but no-one will believe you any more, you can no longer direct your cause and you might as well be dead. In that vein, in games iwth 1 detective and 2 mafia, it is considered a worthwhile gambit for the detective to reveal as soon as he gets the identity of one mafioso, even though this guarantees his murder the following round, as that action favours the town more than holding on to the information and risking being murdered before getting the chance to find the other mafioso. In the same vein Reenk sacrificed himself in Mafia V to ease the passage for Seamus, although that worked a bit too well and backfired.

I can't coordinate the action with Prole because there are no provisions for it in the game. We send in our orders, and we read about the results the following morning. Therefore we'll have to do so separately. As the more active player, I have more to lose by fulfilling my part of the bargain but being left by the other, so I invite her to do so first and I'll follow.

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