Uhm, yeah. Peaceful workers, here to earn some money...

[Don Corleone]

Where I come from, when people come running over the border with guns and shoot at the agents, that's an invasion But then again, I'm just a racist right-winger, right Watchman? Remember this summer when you said I was paranoid and delusional? Yeah, I'd like to bring that up again here...

Integrate my foot. They want to take over, and they're here now.

[Divinus Arma]

I think you read the Drudge Report.

[econ21]

The link seems to suggest this was related to drug-running. I'm not sure what your point is, Don? Drug runners don't want to integrate?

[scotchedpommes]

All illegal immigrants are drug-runners, naturally.

[Del Arroyo]

The whole border region of Mexico is a war zone and has been pretty much without a break for the last 200 years. WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

[Don Corleone]

They said it occurred on a drug-trafficing corridor.

1) Nobody is saying it was actually drug gang members.

2) Who do you think shepherds all the illegals over here?

I really don't understand why there's such a big push out there to have as many illegal immigrants come into this country as possible. I see it in Democrats, who embrace it openly. I see it in Republicans, who lie, and say they'll stand firm, then sign amnesty deals. And I see it most in Europeans, who gleefully cheer that we cannot maintain the integrity of our borders any longer. That's right folks, cheer, cheer cheer. Rome is falling.

[Don Corleone]

The whole border region of Mexico is a war zone and has been pretty much without a break for the last 200 years. WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

Well, what you might have missed is that under orders, the National Guard troops actually retreated. That is, a bunch of armed men approached the border, fired at the border guards, who then in turn ran without firing back, because they were ordered to. Yeah, I'll sleep better tonight. Who's to say it wasn't Al-Queda coming through?

And yes, DA, I read Drudgereport regularly.

[scotchedpommes]

And I see it most in Europeans, who gleefully cheer that we cannot maintain the integrity of our borders any longer. That's right folks, cheer, cheer cheer. Rome is falling.

Where? I might not cheer, but if I read many more posts like this I might just
get a laugh from it.

[Tribesman]

really don't understand why there's such a big push out there to have as many illegal immigrants come into this country as possible. I see it in Democrats, who embrace it openly. I see it in Republicans, who lie, and say they'll stand firm, then sign amnesty deals. And I see it most in Europeans, who gleefully cheer that we cannot maintain the integrity of our borders any longer. That's right folks, cheer, cheer cheer. Rome is falling.

Hey Don you know that bit it the opening post, the bit where you mention an earlier comment by watchman .
Perhaps he has a point .

[Don Corleone]

Where? I might not cheer, but if I read many more posts like this I might just
get a laugh from it.

Glad to be there for you, big guy.

[Del Arroyo]

Sounds like whoever was giving orders to the National Guardsmen is a very sensible guy. The first rule of the warrior is to avoid unnecessary conflict.

What reason would they have to return fire? That's not what they're there for. It's not like the gunmen would be able to hold out against the whole US Army if they decided to really try something.

[Don Corleone]

Uhm, yeah, except the whole US army wasn't there. If we can't protect our borders, if we let every gang of armed thugs coming from Mexico (who may or may not be Mexican for that matter), hell, if we're not even going to try....

I don't think the government should be surprised by a spike in vigilantism. When the government fails to protect the people, they'll start taking care of themselves.

[Xiahou]

Uhm, yeah, except the whole US army wasn't there. If we can't protect our borders, if we let every gang of armed thugs coming from Mexico (who may or may not be Mexican for that matter), hell, if we're not even going to try....

I don't think the government should be surprised by a spike in vigilantism. When the government fails to protect the people, they'll start taking care of themselves.

That's the amazing part of all of this- people on all sides seem to completely lose sight of the fact that a nation has the right duty to protect its borders. When a group, be it drug dealers, illegal aliens or foreign troops try to violate a country's borders by force- it should be the government's duty to stop them.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I don't think anybody would've laughed if this would've been about criminal paramilitary groups from former Yugoslavia infiltrating European borders....

I have little sympathy for paramilitary groups - yes that's what we're dealing with here - furthering the interests of billion dollar criminal organisations. No democratic state can tolerate this sort of activity. I hope next time they won't stumble upon the National Guard but upon a properly equipped Border Patrol unit.

However, Don, we should make a distinction between border infiltration by armed thugs and Latin-American immigration in general. You've described this event in terms of a rather unsavoury metaphor for Latin-American immigration into the US at large. I.e. as 'armed Mexican thugs overrunning the US'. Which is horse-puckey.

Besides, I wouldn't focus too much on what happens at the border. Drug trafficking won't be stopped by tightening the border control. The more difficult it gets to get them in, the higher the incentive to find some means to get them in.
Nor does it have any great impact on the Latinization of the southwest US. Tighter border control won't make much of a difference. That will change neither demographic trends nor the unwillingness of many Latino's to integrate.

[Don Corleone]

Louis, you raise a valid point. Surely, the average river-hopper isn't here to establish Aztlan or whatever the drug cartels in Mexico are using for propaganda these days.

Unfortunately, when they allow themselves to be footmen in these battles, it's hard to sympathize with them when they choose to be fodder for such forces as these.

Tribesman, scorn from you comes as praise. Thanks for reassuring me.

[Marshal Murat]

I'm not surprised that the National Guard fell back for the sole reason that they're more observational, co-ordination and not actually there with guns and Bradleys.
I however wish that the Border Patrol would take more steps to prevent this sorta intimidation. Claymores would do just fine.
While on a seperate tangent, I think drugs should be legalized. It'll be like drinking in Europe. The spike after the whole "oooh, I can sniff crack, and its cool!" and then the levelization as those who take it to the extreme crash and burn, or the people realize what a bad idea it is, and it will melt into the background of American society.

[Strike For The South]

Im convinced something has to be done at a state level. Texas and California are the two most powerful states in the whole damned union. Is the Latino vote really that important? Do the politicans know Latinos dont vote? We need to start soon and we need to start in places like Lardeo and Eagle Pass, places where Mexican lae runs rampant and the language has completly disinagreated.

Bribe culture seeps into South Texas
19 convicted as Mexican style of corruption moves north of the border

By JAMES PINKERTON
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

BROWNSVILLE — The bribe has long been a shortcut to wealth and power along the Texas-Mexico border. But these days, it's not just politicians lining their pockets or crooked lawmen taking bags of cash to overlook drug loads.

The culture of bribery is quietly seeping into new realms of government, from school districts to municipal court, experts say.

Proximity to Mexico is at least partly to blame, said Anthony Knopp, a professor who teaches border history at the University of Texas at Brownsville.

"What we're dealing with is a Third World country on the other side of the border where there is a culture of corruption ... corruption will show up here, naturally."

And show up, it has.

Since March 2004, 19 public officials including former Cameron County Sheriff Conrado Cantu, a city manager, several county commissioners, a school superintendent and several school trustees have been convicted of taking kickbacks and bribes.

Some pocketed wads of cash. Others accepted new tires for their cars or extensive remodeling jobs on their homes and businesses. Some even partied with prostitutes. In return, some allegedly awarded lucrative contracts to build or furnish new schools and public buildings. Or they looked the other way as traffickers hauled drugs across the border.

"Bribery is happening down here," said Israel Pacheco, a veteran Texas Ranger in McAllen. "To say it's not happening is to bury your head in the sand."

The way things are done
The bribery culture has existed in Mexico for centuries. There, the bribe is known as la mordida — "the bite." Paying mordidas is often the most efficient — or the only — way of getting things done in Mexico.

Federal officials in the Rio Grande Valley say they began seeing rising numbers of bribery cases several years ago, and formed a task force to target corruption and graft.

Bribery "undermines public confidence in government," said Don DeGabrielle, the U.S. attorney for the federal district that stretches from Houston to Laredo and south to Brownsville.

"When a few abuse their offices ... citizens justifiably wonder then who can they trust in the rest of government," said DeGabrielle, a former FBI agent.

He said the federal task force has led to a number of important arrests and hopes that continued prosecutions will discourage others from taking or offering bribes and kickbacks.

But for some, the temptation is too great.

A Brownsville municipal court clerk was recently sentenced to probation for fixing traffic tickets, undeterred by hundreds of police officers around her at the police station. For a "fee," a city code inspector and a permit clerk allegedly let six used-car lot owners operate in Brownsville without passing building inspections.

The culture of bribery "has filtered down to where it's not just law enforcement," a veteran U.S. agent said on condition of anonymity.

Bribery of lawmen remains a problem, he added.

"We're seeing it a lot more ... and it isn't always cash," he said. "It could be bottles of liquor, it could be a car. Sometimes it's hunting trips."

He said the motivation is always the same — greed.

"It's the money," the agent said. "As long as I've been doing this job."

Alleged entrapment
Some in the Valley blame federal authorities.

The government "creates crime" by using "unsavory" informants to entrap otherwise honest people, said Al Alvarez, a McAllen lawyer who has defended a number of public officials.

As the Valley grows and receives larger shares of state and federal funding, more and more locals get involved in government and some don't know the law, Alvarez said.

"People here don't have the experience in management ... mistakes are made, and some are criminal," Alvarez said.

Bribery cases often end in scenes like one in a Brownsville federal courthouse Nov. 10, when Israel Tamez, a tearful ex-county commissioner, stood before a federal judge.

"I know I did wrong, and I have to pay for it," said Tamez, a resident of Willacy County, one of the state's poorest.

U.S. District Judge Andrew Hanen sentenced Tamez to six months in jail for taking a $10,000 bribe to award a $14.5 million jail contract.

The fallout from another federal investigation was even more tragic in the case of Ed Aparicio, 46, a popular state judge who killed himself last April on the day he announced his resignation. Although the judge was never charged with a crime, FBI agents had searched his home and courthouse chambers, carting off paintings and other potential evidence in a reported bribery investigation.

TV stations in the Valley routinely feature tales of public officials being caught allegedly pocketing bribes in exchange for a range of illegal favors.

In one case last year, the FBI arrested a trustee for the Pharr-San Juan-Alamo Independent School District and a masonry contractor, accusing them of bribery and extortion.

The McAllen Monitor, applauded the move.

"What's most disturbing isn't the way the two are accused of operating," the paper said in an editorial. "It's that officials at nearly every other school district and municipal government in the Valley conduct business in a similar manner."

In another case, the Cameron County district attorney is investigating how the Brownsville Navigation District spent $21.4 million in taxpayer money during a decade-long, futile effort to build a rail bridge to Mexico.

A private attorney hired by the district concluded $10.5 million was paid to subcontractors in Mexico who did little or no work, including a firm with close ties to Mexican officials.

Elections involved
Bribery has also crept into Valley elections, said Othal Brand Jr., who ran his father's unsuccessful campaign for mayor last year in McAllen.

A political worker offered him "400 votes for $10 apiece, or $4,000," he said.

"It short-circuits the system," Brand said of bribery. "It speeds the process up and cuts red tape. It saves time or money, but without any conscience about the morality, the right or wrong."

Some worry that even more public officials could be compromised as vast amounts of drug money flow across the Texas border.

Laredo police frequently stop cars for speeding as they head through town on their way to Mexico, finding "massive amounts of cash," said Jerry Thompson, a history professor at Texas A&M International University. "One had $400,000 in a bag in the back seat. He didn't even have it in the trunk.

"What scares me is that this drug corruption is going to corrupt the judicial system."

Undeterred, U.S. officials say they're continuing their fight against bribery in the Valley.

"It's not over," said DeGabrielle, the top U.S. prosecutor in Houston. "We are still actively engaged in investigating corruption. ... We haven't washed our hands and declared victory."

[BigTex]

I'm not surprised that the National Guard fell back for the sole reason that they're more observational, co-ordination and not actually there with guns and Bradleys.

Personally I think we need more of these



and less of those



on the border.

Quite honestly having an invasion by militant Mexican extremists is reason enough to put more heavier armed forces down there.

Currently the level of criminal aliens coming across the border is insane. We have the ability and the power we need to enforce our law's and our borders.

[lars573]

But then in 3 months you have unarmed civilians being shot in the dark by border agents. Big mess yes?

[BigTex]

But then in 3 months you have unarmed civilians being shot in the dark by border agents. Big mess yes?

In 3 months you'll have more armed citizens on the border randomly killing people crossing. Bigger mess yes?

[lars573]

Oh it's going to be a bigger mess no matter what. The only thing that's going to stop the flow of migrants from Mexico to the US is Mexico. Doesn't matter what you do, fortify the border, shoot Meixcans on site, ship them back. Mexico is the one who can stop the flow. By making it a place tha that people actually want to live in.

[BigTex]

Oh it's going to be a bigger mess no matter what. The only thing that's going to stop the flow of migrants from Mexico to the US is Mexico. Doesn't matter what you do, fortify the border, shoot Meixcans on site, ship them back. Mexico is the one who can stop the flow. By making it a place tha that people actually want to live in.

Kind of difficult when the Mexican policy is to get as many across the border as they can. They also refuse to hire their own population, claiming it's to expensive so they are using immigrant labor in mexico further forcing their own north. No loading the border with armed guards wont stop immigration, but it will slow it. And it's far better then the ticking time bomb we currently have. These kinds of invasions are going to set that bomb off one of these days, and if armed NG can prevent that then bring em on down.

[Sensei Warrior]

Then why not encourage the US gov to force the Mexican gov to change their policies. Its not like we haven't done that in the past (and present) to other countries whose policies we didn't like?

[BigTex]

Then why not encourage the US gov to force the Mexican gov to change their policies. Its not like we haven't done that in the past (and present) to other countries whose policies we didn't like?

To bad that isnt happening. Since it wont the governors should at least use armed force to prevent, or even delay what will happen.

Not to say Bush hasnt tryed, granted IMO not hard enough but he has. The Mexican government refuses to do anything about it. They even support it, it's part of Foxes national policy.

We need to enforce our laws, and our borders. Having invasions by militant Mexican extremists is more reason to have armed personel on the border.

[Xiahou]

Then why not encourage the US gov to force the Mexican gov to change their policies. Its not like we haven't done that in the past (and present) to other countries whose policies we didn't like?

Mexico has zero incentive to do so. Illegal immigration is a safety valve for Mexico- it lets them get rid of unhappy, poor citizens instead of having them stay in the country where they could become a political liability. Additionally, the money that illegals siphon off our economy and send back to relatives in Mexico is a significant revenue source for the country.

[Duke of Gloucester]

Isn't this thread conflating three separate groups?

1. American citizens of Mexican descent and Mexicans who have legal right to work and live in the US
2. Illegal immigrants of Mexican origin
3. Armed thugs who attack border guards

Obvious group 3 deserve unreserved condemnation, but this incident can't be used to attack groups 1 and 2. Neither can Mexico alone be blamed for the rise in numbers in group 2. In any situation like this there are push and pull factors. Yes, some Mexicans might find Mexico an unattractive place to live and work and the Mexican government could (and should) do something to address this, but they would not make their way to Texas unless there was something to attract them: work that Texans won't do for the pay on offer and employers willing to give work to illegals. This is something the Federal and State governments could (and should) address. Action on the things that make the US attractive to illegals will be more effective than trying to secure the border. The only way to make the border completely secure would be to close it, which would have harmful economic effects on both countries.

It is worth remembering that there a plenty of people who fall into group one in Texas, many of whom have forebears that arrived in Texas a very long time ago. It would be wrong if problems with groups 2 and group 3 led to hostility against them.

[Sensei Warrior]

Mexico has zero incentive to do so. Illegal immigration is a safety valve for Mexico- it lets them get rid of unhappy, poor citizens instead of having them stay in the country where they could become a political liability. Additionally, the money that illegals siphon off our economy and send back to relatives in Mexico is a significant revenue source for the country.

If Mexico had zero incentive to do so than the US is either:

a. Not trying hard enough, Saddam had zero incentive to relinquish power, but we somehow managed to presuade him.

b. It hasn't become such an epidemic that the Federal Gov. is forced to resort to A.

[BigTex]

If Mexico had zero incentive to do so than the US is either:

a. Not trying hard enough, Saddam had zero incentive to relinquish power, but we somehow managed to presuade him.

b. It hasn't become such an epidemic that the Federal Gov. is forced to resort to A.

For starters the rich have too much to gain from a source of cheap labor. Those are generally the people making the large campaign contributions also..... But also there is little to gain from invading Mexico. Little was gained the last time we invaded it, too. War with Mexico would result in a long drown out conflict that would occur all across the southern states. I doubt many of us would like to see mexican gangs bombing Hollywood.

Now, annexing Mexico could be a good thing though in the long run. Granted would take awhile to see anything positive, but the southern portions of Mexico are quite rich.

[Sensei Warrior]

LOL, Ok don't take this seriously but I can't help but to tie this into the discussion we were having in the other thread.

All the more reason to open our border to Mexico. We'll take in everyone who wants in, spread them out amongst all the states, then when we've depleted the population enough we'll politely offer to annex them. Hell, if we let them all move in even the immigrants they're using for cheap labour will come in as well.

If they decline the Annex then military action. What are they going to do? We'll have their whole population. Who they going to draft?

If we keep the Southern border open we will prolly be able to claim most if not all of the Central and South Americas using the same method. We will be able to win the drug war and have a very large, willing, and able manual workforce, and the rich Southern lands of Mexico, and think of all the revenue we can tax from the college kids who will inevitably be down in the Tourist Cities of Mexico on spring break.

[Major Robert Dump]

Did they not have their weapons at ready? I'm somewhat curious why they didn't just yell some warnings, send up a flare and open fire. Even if the Mexicans were better equipped, they would be nuts to stand and fight the American forces. Hell, if they did stand and fight and hurt/kill some of our people, maybe then the people will realize how big of a threat this stuff is.

First, they invade our country and skirt paying taxes while sucking entitlements.

Then, they try to have Dog the Bounty Hunter extradited! A shame!

Now, this